The Price Of Quitting The Game

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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby lostie » Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:18 pm

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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby kyung » Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:03 pm

i think i'm more interested in buying trinkets to put on my desk than buying clothes
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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby tttigre » Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:45 pm

maybe this is a silly post but I'm wondering about psychological no-cop strategies, because I want to go on one starting mid-this-month.

I thought I would do a better job of it when I went to Japan, because I figured I would be too big for everything because everything is made for small people. I was half-right. when I went to shops and tried things on most stuff is certainly not built for me, especially shoes, so that was a good deterrent. although I'm not upset with what I actually bought in Japan, because it was few and opportunist. however, when I got home I had a big pile of boxes waiting for me because out-of-sight-out-of-mind was extremely conducive to letting purchases pile up from abroad.

however, I lasted a good month or maybe six weeks at the beginning of the semester (say, Sept 1-Oct 15) in which I didn't buy anything. I was happy about this, and I felt good, and I was content. I liked that my money was going to different things. "experience" things. because I suddenly found myself very busy in contrast to the lazy dregs of summer, this also coincided with me posting and browsing fashion forums and tumblrs less often. of course, the correlation is clear: I don't browse fashion forums, I don't see things I want to have, I don't skim webshops, I don't experience temptation, I don't buy things.

but as I've settled into myself a bit more over the past few months, it turns out I really like this hobby. I enjoy the communities and the people and the blogs. I like engaging in fashion as a spectator, but this leads into a vicious cycle of me seeing things I want, skimming webshops, and buying things. obviously stepping fully away from this stuff would help immensely as I live somewhere where I rarely see real cool stuff I want to emulate, but I don't really want to do that because buying things is a side-effect of what is really genuine enjoyment.

how do I reconcile these things? has anyone else experienced a similar hang-up? what sorts of psychological strategies can I try whilst pursuing a no-cop?
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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby kyung » Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:56 pm

Image



muji cardboard castle model

solar powered shiba toy that wags its tail in the sun

kidrobot labbit

some japanese building block thing

polaroid printer

a nice rock i found under a waterfall while traveling in ghana + a couple bracelets they made me
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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby inherently » Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:51 pm

i had to clean off my desk at home after I went to college because it got way too dusty in my room, this is what i still have "on display" in my closet:

Spoiler:
Image

This is all from when I was younger - parents + family friends used to buy me all sorts of owl-based stuff


If I ever end up becoming a professor I want to fill my office with cool trinkets and books.
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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby drosselmeyer77 » Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:02 pm

tttigre wrote:how do I reconcile these things? has anyone else experienced a similar hang-up? what sorts of psychological strategies can I try whilst pursuing a no-cop?


Personally I think unless you are spending yourself into debt the no-cop things are really no different than trying cop your way to happiness.

Though one way I've found to get your spending under control is to figure what you actually want and be specific about it...because when you just start browsing around with nothing in particular in mind you'll just start adding everything you like to your buy list. If I need generic pieces I'll start with something like "Ok, I need a good pair of winter weight dark-colored pants" instead of being more general like "Oh, I want some new shit for F/W." Lately I've just been getting super specific like "I want a belted cabled shawl collared cardigan in dark grey" and just refuse to cop anything that doesn't match that description closely.

Browsing with the intention of "oh I want to spend some cash on whatever catches my eye" is the worst though, I feel like if you can get rid of that initial impulse you'll just wind up with a better outlook. Guess the key for me has been figuring out what I really want and not settling for anything else.
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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby odradek » Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:26 pm

i actually have almost no problems with my cop-rophilia; the only thing that bothers me is the shoebox-sized space I have to keep my clothes. i love having too much (let's be real, i could halve my closet today and still be perfectly happy) and i love being a collector of shit i like. personally, i think it's much cooler to have gobs of off-kilter designer clothes than shelves filled with porcelain figures. i spent almost 10k in 2013 and maybe 1k of that was stuff i shouldnt've bought, most of which was impulse and is in the process of being flipped. looking at the list of purchases in the past year, the bar for a Great Purchase is "over the fucking moon." that's a great problem to have, even my bad purchases are well-loved. there's something really nice about coming back to something that you loved and loving it again and being in a time machine to when that was The Thing.

this is all a long-winded way to say that i reject no cop as a categorical. instead i'm putting myself in for planned cop. i've moved through shoes, boots, outerwear (i think i'm done for the season, i swear. i'm even passing on that ts(s) thing that was stupid cheap), tees, hoodies, cardigans, shirting, suiting, etc. So, until april, the only things I'm going to buy are planned, things that i've been eyeballing. for accountability purposes, these are: STORY jeans, the journal standard indigo knit from unionmade if it goes on sale in my size, a replacement pair of vans authentics (or possibly eras, i haven't decided which is why i haven't bought), and one pair of simple wool trousers that will work with boots, if they pop up. this looks to be about 800 dollars and i am ok with this.
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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby teck » Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:49 pm

drosselmeyer77 wrote: Browsing with the intention of "oh I want to spend some cash on whatever catches my eye" is the worst though, I feel like if you can get rid of that initial impulse you'll just wind up with a better outlook. Guess the key for me has been figuring out what I really want and not settling for anything else.


ive found this to be pretty true. in the last 6 months i've honed in more and more on a certain style i like, and ive listed out some rules for clothes that act as a guideline. if the item im looking at doesn't match up with the style and rules, i wont buy. just learning more about yourself *cue 90s sit com serious moment* can help lead to more disciplined cops.

in case anyone cares, the rules i have are:

1) durability - can the garment be worn often and roughly? can i spill a bunch of mayo on it and not care?
2) color - is it black, or gray?
3) wearability - is it loose fitting? is it protective?
4) shape/synergy - will it go towards my Monk Penguin aesthetic?

this has lead to me buying from only certain brands, and stalking the hell out of a few pieces like some kind of internet mountain lion.

note that this helps me in perhaps spending more wisely, but not spending less, or spending less time. Also ill be fucked if i decide the look i like right now sucks and i need to start over.
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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby rjbman » Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:13 pm

Planning on using up the giftcards/returns from Christmas then doing no-cop till May and my immigration(?) to Chicago.

Really want the STORY jeans too, but I don't think the cut is right, so I'll wait for a different one.
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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby lostie » Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:26 pm

WELP I failed no-cop. Bought timbs on sale (though I was going to buy them for myself as a Christmas gift, just never got around to it).

Will wait a while before trying again :(
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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby schiaparelli » Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:11 pm

tttigre wrote:maybe this is a silly post but I'm wondering about psychological no-cop strategies…

I like engaging in fashion as a spectator, but this leads into a vicious cycle of me seeing things I want, skimming webshops, and buying things. obviously stepping fully away from this stuff would help immensely as I live somewhere where I rarely see real cool stuff I want to emulate, but I don't really want to do that because buying things is a side-effect of what is really genuine enjoyment.


this is a really interesting question to me because it's something i've been thinking about quite a bit. i stepped away from "internet fashion" for the first bit of my fall semester, and the lack of exposure/engagement + being involved in schoolwork and other things made it easy to not think about buying things and wanting things. but obviously i'm back and for the past few weeks i've been staring down the ssense sale even though i know i shouldn't really be buying anything. i like looking at clothes. and the discovery of "wow, this is the perfect item for someone who wants to dress like x", or "this item represents this particular idea or form that i have been searching for and am delighted by now" is always really nice.

re: loving fashion and buying into fashion, i think we've talked about this on c-t before but i feel fashion is always going to be a bit of a "pay to play" hobby. at some point the distant, removed appreciation of fashion and style and clothing and brands and aesthetics is going to transition into specifically wanting to try something and do something and dress a certain way.

one thing i remember doing during sales is collecting a list of what i thought were really good items and posting them as a collection of "someone should cop this" sales recommendations. and in some way sharing specific items helps push down the desire to own something. in some cases the level of ownership i want is just to have someone agree with me, "yeah, that thing is pretty cool", and it's kind of nice to think about some internet stranger buying something cool from my recommendation and really enjoying it.

what i do a lot these days is use my pinterest to collect virtual wardrobes of all the things i could buy, and arranging pieces into imagined outfits and aesthetics and use cases, and sometimes that is also enough. i want a lot of things but i don't want everything in my life. so i think for me, the psychological strategy is in realizing that playing "what if" with different ideas is something that i can do without buying in. especially with sale items—sharing something i see that's really cool is this way of also confirming, "this is not going to slip out of my hands and life forever if i don't buy it. i can just share it with people and we can appreciate it and that's it."

xxx

drosselmeyer77 wrote:Though one way I've found to get your spending under control is to figure what you actually want and be specific about it...Lately I've just been getting super specific like "I want a belted cabled shawl collared cardigan in dark grey" and just refuse to cop anything that doesn't match that description closely…Guess the key for me has been figuring out what I really want and not settling for anything else.


i agree. this is something i've been trying to do more and more…i've settled into a point where i know i don't "need" anything in the sense of "oh, i need f/w stuff, i need s/s stuff". like you said, it's easy to think "oh, this season you are supposed to buy/want things like chunky sweaters, i guess i can snap up this sweater then". i want, however, very specific kinds of items, and having this high standard of specificity is a good way to use pickiness to buy more carefully. considered spending over time ends up probably having a similar financial effect as periods of no-cop and normal buying. (think i have also discussed before the idea of active ownership vs. minimalism—in general, i think choosing consciously what you want is more effective than trying to have extended periods of not wanting. we're always going to want stuff.)

i think it was germinal who sent me a link to this blog post, "what do i want?", where the writer discusses having highly specific ideas of certain items and patiently waiting until they pop up. sounds quite similar to what you are discussing.

i have a spreadsheet right now where i list all the things i could ever want. it's a pretty big list. usually when i go around and stare at picture of well-dressed people at some point i'll get the sense, "i would really like an oversized coat", "i would really like brown ankle boots". and then i go write it down. and over time i realize that some wants are ephemeral and some wants start to seem more and more like really good ideas. and then i'll keep on thinking about that particular thing i want and still stare at a lot of fashion and style content, and covertly stare at people irl, and i start developing a sense of "if i want this item, it must have this detail. it cannot have this detail."

i think i'm just big on writing down goals in general, but at least when it comes to clothing it helps because i can relentlessly pursue these very specific things i would like and holding out that promise of "you are not denying yourself, you are just waiting for the right thing" helps in cutting out purchases that are less important.

interestingly, i think i take the exact opposite tack when handling my romantic relationships, but whatever.
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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby rjbman » Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:22 pm

Starting no-cop barring a few books off amazon (with gift cards) and Lolla tix until May.
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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby drosselmeyer77 » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:01 am

schiaparelli wrote:i think it was germinal who sent me a link to this blog post, "what do i want?", where the writer discusses having highly specific ideas of certain items and patiently waiting until they pop up. sounds quite similar to what you are discussing.

i have a spreadsheet right now where i list all the things i could ever want. it's a pretty big list. usually when i go around and stare at picture of well-dressed people at some point i'll get the sense, "i would really like an oversized coat", "i would really like brown ankle boots". and then i go write it down. and over time i realize that some wants are ephemeral and some wants start to seem more and more like really good ideas. and then i'll keep on thinking about that particular thing i want and still stare at a lot of fashion and style content, and covertly stare at people irl, and i start developing a sense of "if i want this item, it must have this detail. it cannot have this detail."

i think i'm just big on writing down goals in general, but at least when it comes to clothing it helps because i can relentlessly pursue these very specific things i would like and holding out that promise of "you are not denying yourself, you are just waiting for the right thing" helps in cutting out purchases that are less important.


Definitely, definitely. The key thing is that through no-cop we're all trying to get a better control on our desires, and the key to gaining controlling over anything is to get a better understanding of how it works.

For me time also helps because as you get a little distance from something you can also evaluate something a bit more holistically, outside of the specific lens of "Do I want this?" One recent example was that I was thinking about getting a burgundy corduroy blazer made because I saw The Hobbit and Bilbo's coat was sweet and I was thinking a blazer would be a good approximation that would be pretty practical. I did the same thing as you and wrote it down, letting the idea stew for a while really seems to help. The stewing is good because you start asking yourself other questions, like "would this go with my other clothes for that season?" and "how often do I really see myself wearing this if I got it?"

schiaparelli wrote:interestingly, i think i take the exact opposite tack when handling my romantic relationships, but whatever.


It's interesting that you bring this up here because I feel like a lot of us here are (to different degrees) buying clothes on more of a relationship basis...in that we're not looking for pieces that'll look good this season, but pieces that we can really break in and wear for years but the problem is knowing the desires of your future self is pretty tough. I have stuff that I bought a year ago where I'm like "woah what were you thinking?" and other things that seemed like they'd fit my life at the time and wound up not working out, much like with relationships.

In both cases you're trying to predict the future but only with information that's applicable to the present, and in both cases sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't.
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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby rjbman » Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:01 am

Does it count as breaking no-cop if it's a need? As in, I need a scarf it's way too fucking cold to be walking around with my face exposed.
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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby bels » Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:13 am

Yes it counts, unless you buy one for #3 from the newsagent.
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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby RycePooding » Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:50 pm

wrap a t shirt around your face.
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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby sidewalk » Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:06 pm

here is like going to a bar to talk about being in AA.
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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby UnwashedMolasses » Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:17 pm

It's the need to counterbalance a habit that is almost by necessity extremely materialistic. I suppose it'd be possible to nerd out over fashion and still shop at Walmart, but for most people the interest in fashion from an academic perspective is coupled with the interest from a personal perspective, specifically dressing yourself in a way that makes you happy and/or makes you feel like you're part of the fashion community. I don't see no-cops as unhealthy; they're more a means to prevent an excess of spending or too much a focus on consumption.
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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby sidewalk » Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:31 pm

But surely when the problem itself is browsing internet fashion, it seems counterintuitive. The desire only comes from finding flintstone or seeing things you want. If you take that away, there is no desire.

What I see here is an expression of an unhealthy desire. When you are saying you need to stop purchasing and why, it is time to step away. There are many things to address, but the issue seems to be a gravitation towards certain factors that cause this. It's like a fixation that causes further evaluation. I see the overlying issue, being purchases, but there are underlying circumstances.

Aside from that, (not to call anyone out as I am in the same boat) when somebody is asking for strategies to not buy things, there is no answer. The more you expose yourself to these types of things or scenarios, the larger the issue becomes. But, this is not the point I even wanted to make. All I wanted to get across was that we should be embracing fashion as to appreciate our hobby. It shouldn't get to the point that materialization is all we care about.
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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby maj » Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:18 pm

think a lot of it comes from the fact you'll see a lot of users with a high turn over wardrobe, they'll buy several things and then a few months later they've sold it again to buy new things, it's not just omg you're spending a lot of money that's bad, it's omg you're spending a lot of money then selling it on 4 months later making a net loss and gaining very little from a wardrobe perspective. every few months it's good to step back and re-assess recent purchases and make what you have work even if your tastes have changed to avoid the vicious cycle of buying out of pure want and having your wants change and make that purchase you loved feel pointless, helping to narrow down what you want to buy until it gets to the point where you're turning down clothes because one tiny thing is wrong with them. at that point you'll be buying a lot less but what you do buy you'll keep and enjoy for years to come. you may come into sections where you find buys coming one after the other and you feel 'wow these are all great' and this is to be encouraged, but the problems come when your buys are scatter shot and you're constantly regretting. no cops and re-evaluation are one way to deal with this and the other is to keep buying and selling till you find what you really want, both are valid but one is a hell of a lot cheaper.
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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby bels » Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:01 pm

Am I understandiing correctly if I say your major contention is that if people don't want to buy clothes, they should not visit the forum or participate in internet fashion full stop? That seems unecessarily limiting to me. Aside from the fact that for some people there's more going on here than clothes talk.

Not buying clothes doesn't have to be about not liking clothes or not wanting clothes. It can be about saving up for clothes, or for something other than clothes, or for getting a better perspective on what you need or what you really want. None of these reasons are particularly attributable to Internet Fashion. Before I'd ever thought of going on forums I'd still waste time and money cruising for "bargains" on the high street and I doubt I'm alone in that. People like to buy things in general. So I think you're wrong that an interest in fashion in itself creates desire and that the only cure is to cut yourself away from it entirely. I also don't like what this implies: That the only interactionswe can have with fashion is desiring clothes. That if you don't want to buy clothes then there's nothing else you can do with them because any interaction with fashion will inevitably result in a purchase or at least the desire to purchase. I don't think that is true for everyone and I worry for those it is true for.

I don't think this thread is inherently negative towards clothes but even if it was I don't feel like it would be particularly bad to have it in a forum that's so overwhelmingly positive towards clothes (in all the best ways). I think it's less like going to a bar and talking about AA and more like going to a bar and seeing that there are a bunch of people drinking cokes. You don't have to abstain but if you want to, the option is there and it doesn't mean you have to sit at home on your own. There are plenty of ways to not buy things, still be interested in clothes, and still have fun on care tags.

Sorry if this post comes across as overly agressive or if I've misinterpreted what you meant. I think that given the state of fashion and the world in general any no cop counter balance that I can provide will never be enough so I feel entitled to distribute it at any chance I get.
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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby teck » Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:14 pm

bela i see what you mean but to run with the aa thing if you are an alcoholic then you definitely wouldn't be going to bars to hang out tho, right? Of course this analogy breaks down some (and is a bit inappropriate for most our situations).

i do think that the whole "stepping back" thing helps, and being critical of what you want to buy is important. realizing that you're getting swept up in something isn't necessarily ok but if you're cognizant about it at least you can have some modicum of control back.
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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby Mippipopolous » Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:03 pm

I've never really liked the "no cop" mentality myself, but maybe I just don't understand it all that well. There just seems to be a small element of self-flagellation about it. I certainly understand wanting to take a step back and be more critical of one's spending habits, but by elevating it to a different level with the idea of "no cop" seems kind of strange to me, as does beating yourself up for making a purchase. I do feel maj summed up the reasons for abstaining from purchasing very well a couple posts ago, but I'm just skeptical with the labeling of "no cop" is all I guess. Shouldn't we always seek to be critical and observant of our purchasing in all facets of our life? I understand fashion is obviously a bit more intense in respect to purchasing and such, but similar problems are prevalent in all hobbies, and it just seems like the no cop thing has more than a smidgen of guilt in it when it comes to be involved in a hobby that at least on a surface level is often seen as more materialistic and shallow than others. Obviously I think the wonderful and thoughtful discussions we have here go a long way to disproving any innate shallowness, but there does seem to be lingering seeds of doubt sometimes. It just seems to me that by going on a "no cop" period you're elevating your problem and making it grow in stature in a lot of ways, and beating yourself up for breaking that period by engaging in a hobby you enjoy just seems silly. Buying responsibly should just really be the name of the game, shouldn't it? Why the label is I guess just what I'm asking. I guess everyone has their own ways to engage with their hobbies and interests in an enjoyable way, and that's great.

I don't know if I'm articulating my thoughts here very well at all, tired and more than a little sick here at the moment. Perhaps I'm just reading into things is all. Anyone wanna help me out by maybe illustrating why they do use the term no cop and why they think it's a good one?
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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby verilyvert » Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:35 pm

For new years, I didn't like the idea of a no-cop resolution, because it felt like a punishment and I didn't want to punish myself for enjoying fashion. Rather my resolution was to build contentedness with what I already have, and have no-cop be a side effect of that resolution rather than the focus.

I think its important to look at why we buy what we buy, and recognize what a strong role emotions can play in consumerism. Creating some space (whether through no-cop, or reduced forum activity) between yourself and a purchase is a good way to reduce the emotion involved, but I think its even healthier to be aware of those emotions to begin with, and understand your motivation for wanting to make a purchase in the first place.

I never liked the mantra "desire is suffering" because I see it as a natural human emotion, and not something innately negative. I feel like denying yourself certain emotions reduces the human experience. Better to be aware of, and understand your emotions in order to have mastery of them. I find continuously realigning your desires with healthy pursuits (such as desiring contentedness) and exercising moderation to be much more fulfilling than intermittent periods of denial.
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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby bels » Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:36 pm

You know what I'm sick of being civil why don't you guys make your own thread about how you love buying things and you're going to keep doing it forever and ever and ever and it's really great.

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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby verilyvert » Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:51 pm

bela wrote:You know what I'm sick of being civil why don't you guys make your own thread about how you love buying things and you're going to keep doing it forever and ever and ever and it's really great.


Not at all what I was trying to say, but I fully support you and your no-cop commitment. Stay strong. (smiling)
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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby bels » Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:59 pm

From now on No Cop Club is a paramilitary organisation
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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby can- » Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:02 pm

add what? I need to know what that word is
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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby can- » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:45 pm

whinefields bought a Kolor blazer and I'm outing him
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Re: Desire Is Suffering

Postby Syeknom » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:29 am

Shame on whinefields for not coming forward

I'm not on zero-policemen but trying to keep my spending down tight. Went to look see if there were any cheap C&J seconds at the store (there was nothing for me) but ended up in another shop with a tom ford tie in my hand. Very pleased with myself for walking away because although it was a good price (for a ford tie) it isn't anything i need right now and would merely be to scratch an itch. Good job, myself!
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Syeknom
 
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