Unused Surgeons Cuffs

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Unused Surgeons Cuffs

Postby MxmHrpr » Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:47 am

Menswear discussion/ideas/questions thread.

Said I was going to make this a while ago, wanna see sharply pressed trews, extreme cutaways and 3-roll-2 jackets hopefully discussed in a little less regimented form than menswear-only forums.

For suit flintstone see this thread.
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Re: Unused Surgeons Cuffs

Postby MxmHrpr » Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:02 pm

Went to Savile about a week back with @vatfreewellies. After ogling Gieves & Hawkes and the rest of the heritage tailors on the row, we slipped off to SuitSupply on Virgo, somewhere more in our price range — where there's a certain shop assistant who's helped me every time I've been in there when picking up/purchasing and we got talking. I was confused regarding the nature of the canvassing of the tux I was trying on and I learnt a hell of a lot.

Looking back on the way I and I imagine many of you learnt about Suit Construction 101 by online menswear blogs. A common theme is that 101 is told from the lens of vintage romanticism — with the focus of the article on the juxtaposition of the pasts full-canvas quality vs the consumerism-fed mediocrity of fused suits today. You're told of the great suit-of-armour-like properties of canvas with regards to moulding and lapel roll, contrasted to the bubbling, delamination and crude nature of fuse. This is generally followed up with the conclusion that half-canvas is the a good combination of canvas everywhere besides the front panel, where it is fused.

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(Image so we all understand what I mean when I say front panel)

Unsurprisingly, after a bombardment of new information about this apparently superhuman component of a suit you'd not considered before, mind racing that maybe the fact that because your jackets aren't canvas that you don't look like Bond and how much of a fool you've been buying fuse in the past. You think why compromise with something that is half-canvas, why not full-canvas and be gone of all dirty inferior fuse. The mindset is binary, fused interlining or canvas, where canvas > fused, so clearly ceteris paribus the "better suit" is the one with the most canvas (assuming price is not an object). From that moment a full-canvas suit is embedded as an grail in the mind and anything else is an compromise.

What these posts do not consider that interlining isn’t binary but has three components; canvassed, fused or no interlining at all. Whilst this may sound like stating the obvious, it has implications for different types of half-canvas suits and changes the conclusion of what is the “better suit”. When the interlining is the only variable, quality isn’t additive, maximising the amount of interlining it’s deductive, having quality interlining when it’s needed.

Intro posts regarding interlining usually just categorised half-canvas construction as canvased everywhere besides the front panel where it is fused — resulting in 50% canvased:50% fused. Though whilst this 50:50 configuration will result in nicer roll of the lapel/chest piece, delamination will occur in the front panel so you might have well of bought a fused suit and saved the money as this asymmetrical wear looks scrappy in the front panel and you’ll dispose of it in the same time frame as a fused suit.

Though there is a different kind of half-canvas construction, wherein everywhere is canvassed besides the front panel where there is no interlining at all. This means that you don’t get any of the negatives of fused but all the benefits of canvassed. But then comes the question, how you can just drop the front panels interlining with no negatives?

Well the assistant in SuitSupply started talking about the conventions of where the practise of having interlining down to the front panel came from, which was because of the use of jackets when on horseback, there was canvas interlining down to the front panel to prevent thorns to the stomach/hips. Though as jacket lengths shortened, this was never re-evaluated and the tradition stuck. Though due to the lack of thorns in most developed areas, interlining in the front panel is no longer needed as there is no need for structure in the front panel as it’s all about drape, which is even inhibited by canvas if done poorly. (Unless you’re going for a highly stylised suit or something like a 3-roll-2 where you need a little structure around the bottom buttons)

Something to clarify here, it’s the lack of interlining in the front panel not lining. There is still lining (bemberg) in this half-canvas variant such that you don’t have to finish the seams like an un/half-lined jacket (that you’d wear in the summer) adding to the cost and the reducing thermal properties in the colder months.

So when considering a suit that’s not 3-roll-2/highly stylised, there is no real reason to go full canvas ceribus paribus, as the front panel is essentially useless. It’s a shame in reality that all things aren’t equal, and often to access better wools/construction/details you have to pick up the tab for this legacy unneeded section of interlining significantly adding to the cost. Though considering the large majority of SuitSupply half-canvas offerings are this variant, I think SuitSupply have cemented my business for a while (even though I’m not such a fan of their advertising).

I also learnt a tonne regarding wools and shoes, though I'll leave that for another post.
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Re: Unused Surgeons Cuffs

Postby bels » Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:35 pm

I'm confused, are you saying that half canvas is about the same as full canvas unless you're bothered about the front panel shape being stiffened.
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Re: Unused Surgeons Cuffs

Postby MxmHrpr » Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:26 pm

I'm confused, are you saying that half canvas is about the same as full canvas unless you're bothered about the front panel shape being stiffened.


Pretty much. The variant of half-canvas with no front panel interlining is essentially the same as full canvas (all other things equal), just you don't have an unnecessary panel which is only there because of legacy as explained. It's a shame this tradition is still practised, as the money which goes into the front panel could be much better allocated to better fabric or savings passed onto the consumer.
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Re: Unused Surgeons Cuffs

Postby hirokinakamura » Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:57 pm

Well suck on that, Schlossman.

#halfcanvasbestcanvas #menswear #sprezz #sweg
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Re: Unused Surgeons Cuffs

Postby thomaspaine » Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:36 pm

I guess that's a good point, typically when I hear half canvas I assume the other half is fused. But for a half lined jacket (e.g. all the ones suit supply makes) the most amount of canvasing you can get is half canvassed. I would still be skeptical about fully lined jackets that are half canvassed though.

I think it just depends what you want out of your suit. Like I can't imagine a tom ford suit looking good with the front panel fused or unlined.
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Re: Unused Surgeons Cuffs

Postby hirokinakamura » Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:07 pm

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tried on this lbm 1911 sport coat when i was in chicago, now i want a soft-shouldered neapolitano style sport coat in comfy wool flannel.

where's muscley-muscle aka pyramidniglet i need some guidance
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Re: Unused Surgeons Cuffs

Postby ilikebacon » Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:19 pm

Wouldn't the drape of the jacket look off if there is no interlining in the front panel? I've never handled a SuitSupply suit or any suits which are half-canvas with this kind of construction but wouldn't it be noticeable if the top block was much stiffer than the bottom block?
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Re: Unused Surgeons Cuffs

Postby MxmHrpr » Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:17 pm

Long story but ended up with mad discount on a MTM sportcoat, booked the appointment and think I'm going to clone this S2B hopsack blue number. Take a jab at the unobtainable perfect blue blazer.

Never went MTM before but some thinks I'm undecided about, would be appreciated if you have any advice:

- Lining: Big fan on crazy linings though open weave I'm scared it'll show through. Will a subtle navy lining show through?
- Pick stitching, either 2mm, 6mm or none: not sure how it'll look on a hopsack texture, or why you really have it at all..
- Under-collar Monogram: 8 characters, no idea what to do if anything.
- Wrist buttons: 4 is fine right or is it a little suit jacket orphaned?

(Off-topic but also picked up Lanvin dinner suit, got an interesting story about that. Just having issue with Northern England alterations places, they'd never dealt with a fully canvased suit before..)
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Re: Unused Surgeons Cuffs

Postby odradek » Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:55 pm

4 is fine but i think for a sport jacket i prefer two. pick stitching sounds dangerous. don't know anything about how the linning will work out but generally i don't like super gauche lining, surprisingly enough. monogram should be '8=======D'
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Re: Unused Surgeons Cuffs

Postby DeafIdiotGod » Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:58 pm

Lining: go 4 it
Pick stitching: tread carefully (I reckon none though)
Monogram: Supreme totally do it
Wrist buttons: 4 wouldn't be terrible if they overlapped I reckon
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Re: Unused Surgeons Cuffs

Postby hirokinakamura » Sun Jan 24, 2016 7:45 pm

I'm reviving this thread in the name of my new suit :woop:

Went to Suit Supply to finally replace the +J suit I sold to deadkitty. Got the napoli in plain navy with a cutaway collar shirt. The guy that helped me was knowledgeable and not too pushy and I'm real happy with it. If I'm looking for another suit and I don't yet have the funds for savile row/some tailor in napoli to make me something bespoke, I'm definitely going back to Suit Supply.

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