"I study Fashion academically"

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Re: "I study Fashion academically"

Postby stappard_ » Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:55 am

bela wrote:Are there more male womenswear designers than female? (I feel there are but I'm extremely ignant)



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I'll do the others at some point, might be interesting to know which city is most balanced.

Shoutout to Sibling, Marques'Almeida and Preen by Thornton Bregazzi for gender-tagteaming btw
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Re: "I study Fashion academically"

Postby bels » Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:22 pm

Is that just womenswear shows? or mw too?
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Re: "I study Fashion academically"

Postby Iliam » Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:28 pm

Rosenrot wrote:My first thought after reading the article is, what about the men? Are they slaves too? Why is she only looking at the female models?

I think that the main idea is that fashion shows are actually not about what we would think they are about, the clothes, instead what the modern runway show is about, and what "we" actually like about them, is that it's a display of full-on sexuality. that the contemporary fashion show's narrative is really "passive sexuality displayed for the glory/ at the whim of the master". this could, i think, apply to the men's shows. they (arguably) also have an erotic display that is less about aesthetics than it is about having 10 X David Gandys walking in your show.

Margiela's masked models seem interesting in this context. they are almost a direct response to the erotic distraction(?) that Hollander is worried about. The Margiela mask could be harking back to the covered models of yesteryear that Hollander uses as an (implicit) example of a more civilized time.

stappard_ wrote:My thought when I read this is that she doesn't seem to address the fact that the major difference between womenswear runway shows and 'rows of whores or slaves' etc is the first-hand audience; the former majority female (and even secondhand viewership doesn't fit, the daily sport isn't publishing catwalk fashion) and the latter overwhelmingly male.

She doesn't mention it in the quote you gave (it may be addressed in the full article) but there is certainly an implication in this passage of the 'catwalk performance' as part of a wider trend of female subordination and I'm not sure the example of fashion shows fits with the historical example provided.


i'm not sure if Hollander thinks the audience's gender is the problem. what is the problem (if i'm reading it correctly) is the fact that "we" repeat the narrative of young, passive sexuality displayed for the glorification of the powerful master every fashion week, that this a "barbaric" approach, and what's worse, we like it (otherwise why would watch the shows since its not about studying the clothing anymore). Hollander is saying "cover the models" and "make them walk slower so we can see the clothes" and "don't be so perverted keep that sexuality at home, just want to look at some clothes not this other stuff" (<-- i'm obviously cheapening her argument a lot)

when i re-read the article its unclear who the "we" is referring to - the front row audience? the fashion industry? the wider (internet/tv) watchers of fashion shows? anyone interested in fashion? its hard to know who hollander is aiming this at but i am probably reading it badly. even if her argument is true, surely there must be different levels of complicity depending on your engagement for these different groups?
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Re: "I study Fashion academically"

Postby Rosenrot » Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:29 pm

Bela - I have a strong feeling there are more female womenswear designers overall but many aren't in the luxury market. Either that or they're part of the team but not the leader. Haven't got a number to back this up though.
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Re: "I study Fashion academically"

Postby JtotheWhat » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:51 pm

I am somewhat surprised that the number isn't more tilted in favor of men, my girlfriend has worked on quite a few design teams for a few companies ranging from SPA brands to '' high fashion '' in both mens and womens wear, and says that the only time she ever works with a male designer, he is likely a team leader or the head designer. Even in her current job designing womens-wear for a large SPA brand her entire team is comprised of women, but they still answer to an old man who has to critique and approve any designs.
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Re: "I study Fashion academically"

Postby Rosenrot » Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:21 am

^^The same thing applies to the editorial side actually. There are more male fashion photographers and stylists in senior positions I have personally encountered, although the number isn't as skewed. However when it comes to the crème de la crème, male fashion photographers reign supreme.
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Re: "I study Fashion academically"

Postby popcorn » Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:41 pm

Weird, I can name male street photographers and hundred-thousand-hit bloggers and self-proclaimed "influencers" who go to fashion weeks but not females. I want to attribute it to something about heavy competition or the internet offering a forum to socially estranged men across the globe with interest in fashion but quite honestly that's a load of shit. I can say the same about favorite head designers but that's another can of worms. Where are the female fashion photographers? I thought blogging was heralded as a woman's domain in general?
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Re: "I study Fashion academically"

Postby Sam » Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:00 pm

I think for fashion related stuff the whole fashion world is pushed upon girls from a very young age. How many girls do you know who want to be the next Anna Wintour? They have a very superficial interest in fashion that really won't progress further than buying a couple of issues of Vogue.

Boys however, it's not a very common thing for a boy (although you can argue this is changing and becoming almost trendy as of recent times) to be interested in fashion and even less so to be interested in pursuing a career in fashion. For a boy you don't just stumble onto a fashion course randomly you usually have to really have a strong want to do such a course.

But for girls it's spoonfed to them from when they're able to read and from my extremely limited (so far) experience with fashion as an academic subject the majority gender on a course is female with there usually being a very small percentage of males on the course and as I've said before these boys are there not because they want to be Anna Wintour or Karl Lagerfeld but because they just want to design and have a real strong interest in fashion.

This is not to say that a girl can't want to design as much as a boy ever can want it but that there is a lot of chaff that needs to be separated from the wheat when talking about girls in this particular subject.

I think this is rambling a bit and I hope you get the gist of what I'm trying to say.
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Re: "I study Fashion academically"

Postby JtotheWhat » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:18 pm

@heckawheel

I get what you're trying to say and you put it together quite well..and on some points I definitely agree, I just don't know if it's the answer to what we were actually saying was the ''problem''. I know a lot of girls who I think love clothes (in my mind not the same as loving fashion, but that's another topic) and the idea of the lifestyle that is (for the most part falsely) portrayed as being available to people in the fashion ''world'', that being said I definitely know that there are men that would fall into the same category. I think when those people realize that they might be doing potentially menial tasks, for extremely long hours and what usually equates to a fairly unsubstantial salary.. they give it up or go into other sectors of the business (buying, merchandising, etc.).

The part where it falls apart for me is that we were highlighting the disparity between the number of women working in the industry and how many of them are in ''top'' positions. I can't really buy into the idea that anyone who has gone through all of the schooling, internships, job applications, shitty jobs, etc...Anyone who has gone through that entire process until they ended up actually designing for any major company whether it be Uniqlo or CdG has obviously decided it's something they are passionate about and want to pursue. Your argument, though in my opinion largely correct, doesn't really go as far to explain why all these companies have a large number of female employees that ultimately answer to men, or put more simply why men seem to get the ''top'' jobs despite there being less of them. I don't think those men are anymore passionate or driven on the whole than the female designers putting in 16 hour days for a fraction of the pay and zero recognition are. Obviously we aren't working with much concrete data and most of what we are discussing is speculation and/or anecdotal evidence, but it is an interesting topic none the less.
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Re: "I study Fashion academically"

Postby klonopin » Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:55 pm

@ryan_firecrotch
@heckawheel
Although you guys's speculations about the prominence of men in top positions in the fashion industry and its internet support structure are interesting, i think you're both overthinking the issue. The fact that men control fashion system is not an exception case that needs to be explained by male estrangement or the superficiality of female interest; men control the art world, international banking, university boards-of-directors, the military-industrial complex, and any other system or organization you can think of. Men control these systems because patriarchal support structures (everything from preferential promotions to hereditary control to the oedipus complex to a fundamental refusal to recognize female genius etc etc) are deeply ingrained within all contemporary cultures and basically ensure male success. And because, fundamentally, the fashion system isn't much different from the art world or the military-industrial complex, the existence of the patriarchy can describe the very serious problem of gender disparity in the fashion industry as well.
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Re: "I study Fashion academically"

Postby JtotheWhat » Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:42 am

Well said, I guess it's just easy for us to jump to the conclusion or hope that the fashion world would be more forward thinking, or even that women would be more well represented due to women being the majority of most brands demographics.
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Re: "I study Fashion academically"

Postby smiles » Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:32 am

Good article on margiela

https://www.dropbox.com/s/il2wu8l4eypsm ... ustman.pdf

Not sure I agree with the thesis but it showcases lots of cool garms

https://www.dropbox.com/s/drbq8907dfl6z ... oxford.pdf

Perhaps a bit dry

https://www.dropbox.com/s/24cm1g3nw2t78 ... elphia.pdf

Sorry for db links
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Re: "I study Fashion academically"

Postby station » Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:08 pm

Not sure if this blog is common knowledge, but I find The Cutting Class to be an extremely informative blog about design on the runway. This article http://thecuttingclass.com/post/91258820188/structural-waist-shaping-at-dior-couture really helps me understand, learn, and appreciate many details that I would never catch on my own.
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Re: "I study Fashion academically"

Postby Iliam » Sun Aug 03, 2014 6:55 pm

Does anyone know about articles or books that address the "is fashion art" question? Both Margiela and Rei have both stated that they do not think that fashion is art (in the sense of 'high art' like painting, sculpture, video, etc.). On the other hand there are frequent designer retrospectives at major art museums the world over, but my impression is that these are still mostly viewed askance by the art world.

It's an interesting problem because it raises questions about the very definition of art, whether an object's utility can prevent something from being seen as 'art' and whether external conditions (commercial pressures on designers, economic systems) should stop things from being receiving the kind of cultural recognition that fine art receives. If you know of anything written on the subject or just have strong opinions/ have ever thought about it i'm interest to learn more!
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Re: "I study Fashion academically"

Postby smiles » Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:23 pm

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@50iliam it's from Cesare Vecellio's costume book. should be of an unmarried ottoman woman.

whoops didnt read the italian. Just low-class) ottoman (turkish) woman. dont have the book with me anymore. from what I can understand, the passage says they dress in the manner of men and then goes on to use lots of clothing vocab i have no idea about.

second edit. found a french version.

"all the turkish women wear long garments as do the men and do not wear other veils or mouchoirs (????) Those of low class cover their head with a bonnet of velvet or other rich fabric (??) they affix another smaller veil over their eyes and in order to see without being seen. outside of the house, they do not expose their body. the coat is buttoned with a belt (boutonne jusqu'a la ceinture), underneath they wear pants of a fine fabrics. The women wear boots in the manner of men. when they go out, these women do not fear the gaze of men nor their threatening words and actions
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Re: "I study Fashion academically"

Postby Cowboy » Fri May 19, 2017 11:55 am

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