LGBT talk palace

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LGBT talk palace

Postby JonjoShelvey » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:35 am

talk about being LGBT or whatever

im bisexual and my math teacher in 8th grade started the realization. actor who played jacob from twilight(lol) later made me realize 100%. nobody IRL knows and im not sure that i need to tell them until i date a guy.
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Re: LGBT talk palace

Postby Stingray Sam » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:26 am

i am attracted to some dudes as well as women, it's w/e
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Re: LGBT talk palace

Postby Bobbin.Threadbare » Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:07 am

Don't ever feel bad about feelings. If something hurts or feels good or makes you feel guilty just sit and think about it until you work out how it makes you.

This was my resolution and its making me more comfortable with myself, even when I have to deal with things that hurt or make me feel sad. I'll never ever again say "I don't want to think about that. Ignorance is bliss"
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Re: LGBT talk palace

Postby YoungCanoeist » Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:25 pm

absolutely. we have to be gentle with ourselves, but it's so rare to hear/realize that. i've been working on it too.
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Re: LGBT talk palace

Postby purkinje » Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:32 pm

I think I might be attracted to guys but would be totally ostracized from my group of friends if I let it be known.

Sexuality is such a weird-grey-sliding scale-web of confusion and people need to stop treating it like it's a black and white concept where you're either one way or the other.
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Re: LGBT talk palace

Postby Rosenrot » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:33 am

Some people are so beautiful that I'm attracted to them regardless of gender.
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Re: LGBT talk palace

Postby UnwashedMolasses » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:22 pm

I sometimes feel almost bad about my bisexuality around other LGBT people. Not because I'm not comfortable with it, I'm fully good with myself. It seems that in many LGBT spaces there's a common thread of shared difficulty and that's not something I've experienced. I didn't realize I was into guys too until years into a committed heterosexual monogamous relationship, which means that I never have to worry about being judged or coming out to my parents or anything of that nature. I'd love to talk more/share with more LGBT people but I often get a sort of "why are you here" jizz.
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Re: LGBT talk palace

Postby Stingray Sam » Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:23 pm

@unwashedmolasses I feel you, i don't really have any problems with my sexuality. I'm with Feminist right now and there's nothing really pressing me to come out. I don't want any sort of emotional relationship with men. It's not really intrinsic to my identity in any way shape or form and it's much easier to just say i'm straight than to explain it to other people. It's kinda strange i don't really feel any connection to the LGBTQ community, there's never really been any struggle to accept myself or for others who do know to accept me. My parents don't know and frankly i don't wish them to know something that's purely sexual to me, i feel like it'd be the same thing as sharing what my fetishes are with them.
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Re: LGBT talk palace

Postby JonjoShelvey » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:33 am

wow molasses that is exactly how i feel. do i have the right to feel personally offended by homophobia?? am i allowed to feel victorious when anti-gay laws are struck down or removed? the strange anti-bisexual feelings from the LG community confuse me.

im kinda flamboyant in real life but i kinda feel like i tone it down around people. i want to wear 'gay thug club wear', go to a pride parade, talk about what latest celebrity/stranger on the street is hot with my girl friends, but i dont want the conversation of my sexuality to come up because im not open about that right now.

i wish i could come out but me and my best friend have a really close relationship (i like rubbing his head and giving massages) and strange sense of humor (genitals are often flashed)and i dont want to ruin any of that even though im not physically attracted to him. idk im kinda conflicted right now. i dont have any potential male romantic relationships in the works so i feel like it's mostly irrelevant to come out.

sorry for rambling im high
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Re: LGBT talk palace

Postby wiggly--woo » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:15 pm

oops, this was meant to be a short post but it kind of grew into something bigger. apologies if it reads like the ramblings of a mad man.

i don't think its unusual for bisexuals to feel somewhat disconnected from the lgbt scene, which is perhaps better described as an lg scene given that there is a small, but significant part of the lgbt scene that does not view bisexuals and transgendered individuals particularly favourably. The issue of inclusiveness for transgendered people is perhaps more understandable given that it is an issue of gender identity as opposed to sexual identity but, in truth, identity formation in regards to both sexuality and gender have a lot of common ground, particularly with regards to gender as a discursive process. In terms of bisexuality it's not unheard of for homosexuals (and, of course, heterosexuals) to simply dismiss bisexuality (particularly in males, curiously) as being non-existent, and this is obviously not helped by homosexuals who choose to 'stagger' the 'coming out' process by claiming to be bisexual, and so for many people bisexual identity is simply a false intermediary. However, in my view, the key problem with bisexuality is that most bisexuals can lead perfectly happy and fulfilling lives within heteronormal society, and perhaps without ever needing to come out. The result, I think, is that many bisexuals never really connect with the non-heterosexual scene/cause, or do so but only covertly; and that some homosexuals are perhaps envious of this.

Having said that everything I just wrote above was a massive generalisation and simplification, and I'm not really in a position to add much to the debate, as I haven't had any direct involvement with the lgbt movement. However, the fact that bisexuals often feel disconnected from that scene, which has been alluded to in other posts, is quite a small problem in the grand scheme things, at least from my point of view anyway. I'd say that the biggest problem with the lgbt scene is that it continues to (re)present itself in opposition to hetero-sexuality/normativity. Of course, I admit that it is virtually impossible to invent a sense of community amongst heterogeneous non-heterosexuals and non-cisgendered individuals without differentiating yourself in someway and, somewhat inevitably, 'othering' those who don't belong, but I feel that in most 'Western' countries it's time to move on to the next stage. Feminists and post-structuralists have been pulling heteronormativity apart and looking at how its produced discursively (i.e. heterosexuality is no more 'natural' than any other sexual identity) for quite a while now, and I think it'd be good for the lgbt movement if these discourses started filtering into popular discourse. If people began to see society in terms of patriarchy and performance/performativity I think it'd be beneficial in a lot of different ways. I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, maybe I've just read too much of Judith Butler.

Anyway, arriving at the point i originally wanted to make, i think my utopian vision (for lack of a better term) is a society where sex/gender (feel free to distinguish between the two, even if i personally would say that they're essentially the same thing and both socially constructed) is completely irrelevant in terms of sexual/romantic attraction. As far as I'm concerned humans are always going to be attracted to other humans and gender/sex just seems to be a completely arbitrary way of categorising this attraction. So my utopia is where 'lesbian', 'gay', 'bisexual' etc are all eliminated from populist language/discourse and its simply accepted that people are attracted to others, sometimes people of the same gender, sometimes people of the opposite gender. Though, of course, my true utopia would pretty much dispense of gender/sex altogether, atleast in its current linguistic and discursive sense.

I'm not entirely sure if I have any idea what I just wrote.
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Re: LGBT talk palace

Postby BIGBEE » Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:52 pm

high school in america really breeds homophobia and I was pretty fucking homophobic. In highschool you get into this mindset that if you associate with gay people or do "gay" things it'll like rub off on you or you'll be ostracized because of it. Wish I'd taken the time to think through it and realize that the way other people live their lives has no impact on mine. Embarrassing that it took my twin brother coming out to me to wisen the fuck up!

This is my personal male highschool experience maybe its different outside of the conservative stronghold of Chicagoland. I don't know how to solve this problem, but I think teenagers eventually grow up, though a few of my friends haven't :roll:

wanted to bump this thread
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Re: LGBT talk palace

Postby can- » Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:39 pm

wiggly--woo wrote:i don't think its unusual for bisexuals to feel somewhat disconnected from the lgbt scene, which is perhaps better described as an lg scene given that there is a small, but significant part of the lgbt scene that does not view bisexuals and transgendered individuals particularly favourably. The issue of inclusiveness for transgendered people is perhaps more understandable given that it is an issue of gender identity as opposed to sexual identity but, in truth, identity formation in regards to both sexuality and gender have a lot of common ground, particularly with regards to gender as a discursive process. In terms of bisexuality it's not unheard of for homosexuals (and, of course, heterosexuals) to simply dismiss bisexuality (particularly in males, curiously) as being non-existent, and this is obviously not helped by homosexuals who choose to 'stagger' the 'coming out' process by claiming to be bisexual, and so for many people bisexual identity is simply a false intermediary. However, in my view, the key problem with bisexuality is that most bisexuals can lead perfectly happy and fulfilling lives within heteronormal society, and perhaps without ever needing to come out. The result, I think, is that many bisexuals never really connect with the non-heterosexual scene/cause, or do so but only covertly; and that some homosexuals are perhaps envious of this.

i think this is pretty spot on, most of the bisexuals i know (and i bet there are SO many people i know who are bisexual unbeknownst to me) are basically straight acting, or at least easily and seamlessly pass in the great scheme of heteronormativity without being othered.

there's also an element of bisexual erasure where you might date a man or woman or date many men or many women, but when you settle down with one person, there is the belief/assumption that you are gay or straight and the rest was some form of experimentation.

another factor is that there are very few models of bisexuality as far as i can tell. growing up you are surrounded by many different models of hetero- or homosexuality-- participatory acts that become part of one's personality and place in society-- but there are so few of these, and the result is that for better or worse theres so much less group mentality about being a bisexual. which is actually pretty lonely, contrary to the high school mentality that bisexuals are greedy or indecisive.
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Re: LGBT talk palace

Postby UnwashedMolasses » Sat Aug 20, 2016 3:22 pm

Is it out of place to draw comparisons between being bisexual and being mixed-race? Outside of the differences between sexuality and race dynamics, it seems like there's a similarity in the feeling of being between two cultures and being expected to personally identify with one of the two because there isn't a known middle ground - as you were saying with the models of hetero and homosexuality, but the lack of bisexual models.

With both I have hope that time will bring greater participation or inclusion and more comfort for the people in between. On that note, actually, does anyone have any ideas for ways to promote that kind of space/culture? I'd love to support something like that if I could but I don't know if there are organizations already working towards it.
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Re: LGBT talk palace

Postby bataille » Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:36 pm

UnwashedMolasses wrote:Is it out of place to draw comparisons between being bisexual and being mixed-race? Outside of the differences between sexuality and race dynamics, it seems like there's a similarity in the feeling of being between two cultures and being expected to personally identify with one of the two because there isn't a known middle ground - as you were saying with the models of hetero and homosexuality, but the lack of bisexual models.

With both I have hope that time will bring greater participation or inclusion and more comfort for the people in between. On that note, actually, does anyone have any ideas for ways to promote that kind of space/culture? I'd love to support something like that if I could but I don't know if there are organizations already working towards it.


Being bisexual is sort of like being mixed-race (I agree with everything you've said), but I think there's one really important distinction.

In transgender rights discussions, the term "passing privilege" comes up a lot. It refers most specifically to the way things are easier for conventionally attractive, believably cis trans men and women than they are for trans folk who don't conform so easily, but the term can easily be applied across the entire queer spectrum. And, to be frank, white bisexuals who typically participate in heterosexual relationships (I'll include myself here) have the most passing privilege of anyone, period; we're basically undercover operatives. So, while we can empathize with most people in the queer community about many aspects of our sexual identity, we also have to recognize that most other queers have had lifetimes of experiences-- many of them hateful, discriminatory, embarrassing, maybe even violent-- that we can't personally understand. I'm not saying there's not issues particular to the bisexual experience; ben and wiggly-woo point them out well. But as far as most queer issues are concerned, we're really allies at the periphery and overidentifying is appropriative, selfish, and distracting.

Most people of mixed decent don't pass so easily. They've likely experienced and will continue to experience racism to an extent far greater than you or I have experienced homophobia.That is, to me, why the analogy is problematic.

That being said, many cities (I can speak personally for chicago, new york, and philaldelphia) have thriving, inclusive, queer DIY music and art scenes and spaces. That's where I'd look to find a culture in which you feel comfortable discovering and developing your own identity.

Spoiler:
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Re: LGBT talk palace

Postby INNIT » Sat Aug 20, 2016 6:56 pm

from Who Is that Queer Queer? by Ruth Goldman on bisexuality and its (non)presence within queer theory/lgbt studies:

. . . bisexuality, along with race, continues to be one of the "continued silences" within queer theory, as it is within lesbian and gay studies. Although queer theory indicates a significant ideological shift from lesbian and gay studies, it has carried with it the essentializing categories of "lesbian" and "gay," and although queer theory scholarship sometimes includes superficial mentions of bisexuality, it is often disappeared at best and disarticulated at worst. Thus, in some ways, bisexuality has become the contemporary version of "the love that dare not speak its name."


also...

. . . since a belief in monosexuality and binary notions of gender are built into the very foundation of this society, the concept of bisexuality threatens the very structure of heteropatriacrchy.


Since many bisexuals, like myself, are attracted to people in spite of their gender and not because of it, and the gender of object choice (based on binary notions of gender and sexuality) is what informs the sexual identity of lesbians, gays, and heterosexuals, then bisexuality is nothing but queer, odd, different–existing in opposition to and challenging the norm.


a counter perspective to notions that bisexuals are not disruptive to heteronormativity/reconstructing bisexuality as an identity category queer-to-the-queer (queer to existing queer identity categories)
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Re: LGBT talk palace

Postby earthonator » Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:53 pm

how can someone identify as a different gender? what does that mean to identify as a different gender it doesn't make sense.

i understand how it's good that many gender stereotypes are disappearing as i have first hand experience with clothing of course, but why is there an argument to rid of gender completely?

why is there such a backlash against identifying as a different gender or is this only present on the internet haha?
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Re: LGBT talk palace

Postby anth » Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:36 pm

I have several transgender friends both male and female and in all cases they feel a sense of unbelonging in their own body. They look at themselves in a mirror and feel unhappy, they are living in a body that wasn't meant for them and it absolutely destroys them. Identifying as a different gender means that you FEEL like you are gender, you feel like you should have been born as that gender and that being treated like that is a huge step for them to be happy with their lives.

And to answer your third question, I honestly have no idea why there is such anger and backlash towards the transgender community. I realize there are extremists out there, people who go around and insult heterosexuals, white males and get offended by pretty much everything and then freak the fuck out about it. And while a lot of these people ARE members of the LGBT community I think they just deserve to seen as what they are, EXTREMISTS. These people do not, and should not represent the LGBT community because 99% of us are just regular people with different feelings, and views on our own lives and the world. Every transgendered person I've met has been great and some have even become my best friends, the general member of the trans or LGBT community as a whole is not some crazy "SJW" that the internet and conservative platforms might make you try to believe, they really are good people. This backlash is just being caused because of these terrible extremists in our community who poorly represent our feelings and just us as people overall. It's so silly that we are being judged based off the actions of 1% of us, and I'm pretty sick of it.
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Re: LGBT talk palace

Postby thephfactor » Fri Sep 23, 2016 1:33 pm

earthonator wrote:how can someone identify as a different gender? what does that mean to identify as a different gender it doesn't make sense.


A pretty important idea for this is that the binarized gender system is a social construct that's not biologically essential. There's nothing in the DNA of every man that makes him always want to wear trousers, cut his hair short, like the color blue, etc. There's nothing in the DNA of every woman that makes her want to wear skirts, cut her hair long, like the color pink, and so on. Gender, with all its roles and archetypes, is just something society made up and perpetuates. So a transgender person who does not feel that they belong on one side can switch sides: renegotiate with society.

I think the backlash has a lot to do about power. The gender system as its set up does benefit a select few: such as men who benefit from the male privilege the gender system bestows on them, or religious people who can profit by preaching dogmas about gender, etc. The idea that the system that treats them so well and makes them feel so secure can be permeated and flouted in this way infuriates and terrifies them. And it isn't just on the internet. I was raised from a young age hearing old white men screaming from the pulpit about the horror of men in dresses.
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Re: LGBT talk palace

Postby mc-lunar » Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:29 pm

@ptozzi care to explain which part of that post you so strongly disagreed with that you had to neg?
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Re: LGBT talk palace

Postby anth » Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:27 pm

.
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Last edited by anth on Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LGBT talk palace

Postby ptozzi » Sat Sep 24, 2016 4:01 pm

:heck:
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Last edited by ptozzi on Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LGBT talk palace

Postby BIGBEE » Sat Sep 24, 2016 4:38 pm

ptozzi wrote:
anth wrote:@ptozzi like what exactly? i think apart from obvious physical advantages/differences there is nothing that would keep a man/woman from doing the other gender's "role"


For instance, women tend to be better preschool teachers, nurses, guidance counselors, etc. For men, their physical differences can reinforce certain gender roles as well, such as in workplaces that require lot's of heavy lifting like warehouses and construction.



:shock:

I've worked both of these kinds of jobs (warehouse moving furniture and babysitting/nursing) and I can tell you it depends more on the person than what's between the persons legs to determines whether they are good at the job.
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Re: LGBT talk palace

Postby bels » Sun Sep 25, 2016 4:56 am

This is basic prejudice 101 ptozzi. Regardless of how "correct" you think stereotypes are, assuming or enforcing things based on arbitrary/societal values leads us down bad roads that we don't need to go down.

This could be an opportunity for growth for you if you have a good think about it then come back and apologise.
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Re: LGBT talk palace

Postby trichomatic » Sun Sep 25, 2016 4:10 pm

im no expert psychologist or anything along those lines, only took a couple psych courses several years ago
i did study a decent amount of human bio and neuro back when i was in school and i can confidently say that, barring extreme cases that are few and far between, genetics as an influence on behaviour is nearly nothing compared to societal queues and pressures.
sure there are subtle differences on average between biological sexes but the overlap and similarities vastly outweigh any differences (the same can be said of ethnicity)
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Re: LGBT talk palace

Postby adiabatic » Mon Sep 26, 2016 12:21 am

…it may be time to yank this bit of the conversation into a new thread, but if it's still here…

I'm a substitute teacher in a K-8 district. I'm sticking to this part of ptozzi's assertions because this is what I know best. Regardless, I don't agree with him.

I'm not in Assessments, but from what I've gathered, it's difficult to accurately assess preschoolers (and therefore preschool teachers) because preschoolers' willingness to sit still and do what a newly-introduced adult tells them to do isn't tightly correlated with how well the kid will do later in life — or at least less tightly correlated than, say, tests given to older students. If it's tough to test the students accurately, it's tough to test the teachers. Because of this, I don't buy ptozzi's assertion that women tend to be better preschool teachers. It could be true, but I'd need to see concrete evidence in favor of this assertion.

What I have observed is that there's a general gradient in how male teachers distribute themselves across the grade range — they're loosely clustered toward the upper grades. I suspect this is because most men, on average, are more like my mother and me — they'd rather deal with preteen 'tude than little kids who cry for mommy and get only a tiny slice of all the jokes they could tell in passing. On the other hand, some do equally well at any age — I know a guy who was a happy, productive 2nd-grade teacher and was a happy, productive 7/8th-grade computer teacher.

Now, what are we to make of this?

If you want to be a teacher, make sure that you're exposed to a wide variety of classrooms (I'd certainly hope you're a substitute and getting jobs before you decide to commit to teacher credentialing classes). You may find that the kinds of kids you thought you'd like to be around aren't the ones you actually like being around. This is good advice in general, whether you're a man or a woman. Furthermore, being a man doesn't make this much better advice, I'd wager; my mother thought she'd prefer eagerer-to-please little kids, but after student teaching both 2nd graders and 5th graders, she realized she preferred older students.

If you meet a man who says he teaches, he probably teaches students who're 7th grade or older — but if he teaches younger students, that's fine too. I trust him to try to and find the age of students that he prefers, and so I feel no obligation to try and steer him to teach younger students or older students. ("How did you end up teaching the students you teach, and how do you like it compared to other grades?" is a great conversation starter at least among teachers; it's not uncommon to strike up a conversation where both participants end up saying "egads, I could never stand the kinds of students you prefer; I'd run screaming by Christmas Break").

Both bels and I agree that "usually" shouldn't be conflated with "ought"; the two may or may not have anything to do with each other. Where I think we part ways is where he appears to conflate "assumption" and "enforcement" inasmuch as he thinks both are bad. I'm against trying to steer male teachers towards or away from the younger grades (I'm anti-enforcement), but I don't think it's a bad thing to notice and discuss that men, for whatever reasons, tend to avoid the lower grades.
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Re: LGBT talk palace

Postby popcorn » Mon Sep 26, 2016 12:46 am

I've been going to Cooper Union for a month now and have been spending more time than I had ever expected in conversations about queer and kink culture. I'm a white cishet male, and I dress pretty traditionally, so I had worried a lot about making people uncomfortable just by being associated with negative things. I still do feel... guilty(?) when I can only extend my empathy while people share stories about targeting or about not being accepted by their families. It's made me really happy seeing people grow more comfortable around me. I really think this is an important part of being here that my friends, at home in South Carolina, are missing out on.
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Re: LGBT talk palace

Postby harmsalmon » Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:27 pm

shoutout all my fellow lgbtq+s

keep your fuckin electrodes off of me Pence
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