feminism and social progressivism thread

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feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby can- » Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:14 pm

this thread is an experiment for those interested in social, political and national equality
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby can- » Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:16 pm

could not help but notice tonight that starring actress Emma Stone is listed 7th in promotions for Woody Allen's film 'Magic in the Moonlight'

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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby ramseames » Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:28 pm

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ben its alphabetical dude
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby can- » Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:30 pm

damn,... smh !!!

was wondering who eileen atkins is
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby can- » Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:35 pm

whitney cummings comedy central special is on everytime i get home from work so I have seen it now about 8 times.

it's depressing that she is billed everywhere as a feminist comedian.

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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby hunnish » Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:45 pm

it's depressing that she's billed as a comedian

edit: so that this comment isn't worthless, i'll throw out a couple good female comedians that don't rely on tired tropes and casual sexism to be funny. (spotify links beloow

Tig Notaro is so great in this special. After she was diagnosed with breast cancer, she basically re-wrote her entire act in a week before this show. Louis CK recommends this as one of his favorite acts of all time so that should be enough for most people.

Maria Bamford is kinda polarizing stylistically. Her voices can annoy some people for sure, but I think she's entertaining.

Sandra Bernhard manages to play the somewhat apathetic character without being too annoying or condescending. She's good fun.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby Ques » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:08 am

i still don't understand how calling someone a social justice blogger is an insult

shouldn't we all want social justice?

just read this interesting article on trigger words and it's good food for thought i think
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby Vaeltaja » Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:10 am

Ques wrote:i still don't understand how calling someone a social justice blogger is an insult

shouldn't we all want social justice?

just read this interesting article on trigger words and it's good food for thought i think


Being a social justice blogger isn't inherently bad. It's being a "social justice warrior" that often has bad connotations.

They are the ones (stereotyping) who will say that a girl saying "suck it" is transphobic. Mentioning "meat" is not a trigger. That is, it's something that occurs in real life. Maybe it triggers some people for whatever reason, but it's not considered reasonable to police someone for mentioning or talking about meat... as it happens everywhere in real life and is not an injustice in itself. SJW are often the ones who take social justice to a whole new level.

Image is an example of extremism.

These people are often seen as actually destroying social justice just as some say radical feminists are destroying the feminist movement.

Calling every little thing triggering is ultimately incredibly offensive. I think the problem is that many of these people are young or simply ignorant. A trigger is not something that makes you feel uncomfortable. It's more than that. It's something that happens to people with PTSD.

Another issue is the "feelings over science" problem. While some will say fat shaming is wrong, they will then also pull up articles that claim that obesity is completely healthy.

It's not so much that social justice is wrong... it's that the people behind the movement are quick to anger and tough to reason with.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby purkinje » Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:05 pm

Vaeltaja wrote:While some will say fat shaming is wrong, they will then also pull up articles that claim that obesity is completely healthy.


I think everyone acknowledges that being significantly overweight/obese usually has negative effects on health, but that can be separated from an individual's physical appearance. You don't know what health problems someone does or does not have and no one goes around making fun of people for having heart problems, it's outward appearance that's stigmatized, and that's not okay.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby Vaeltaja » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:30 am

Hey guys. I'm really bad at finding studies/research... maybe one of you guys can help?

I'm interested in reading about the (gender) wage gap. However, I haven't found a study yet that I've found satisfactory, for whatever reason (probably my fault)... so I'll list my criteria down.

All variables except gender/sex are the same. That means comparable degrees/race/work experience/same job title/style of work (i.e. both hourly or both salary)/age/anything else I can't think of right now. Preferably I'd like it taken from the same company as well (as less or more sexist companies could skew the data) from different geographical areas (but all in the USA). Furthermore, I want them to disregard negotiated salaries and only look at initial offers, that way aggressiveness or the decision to take a lower pay for better benefits cannot be taken into account. Also overtime won't be looked at.

Of course, I'd also like a wide variety of jobs. Also preferably I'd like one that doesn't focus too much on jobs that have lots of money that might not get properly taxed (i.e. waiters, strippers, bartenders). It shouldn't matter too much if it's within the same company, but for the sake of reducing variables, it'd be nice.

Thanks c-t!
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby ramseames » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:51 am

tbf i know a lot of nothing about these things but isn't the wage gap mostly related to career choice/amount of hours worked/mat leave being unpaid in the states?

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1 ... 2909957472
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby sidewalk » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:05 am

@vaeltaja

The male incarceration rate is ~15-20x higher than that of women in the U.S. Is that sexism or are there socio-economic (or even biological) issues at hand? The answer is obvious and so I don't find joy in analyzing statistics that say all of nothing.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby Vaeltaja » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:52 am

ramseames wrote:tbf i know a lot of nothing about these things but isn't the wage gap mostly related to career choice/amount of hours worked/mat leave being unpaid in the states?

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1 ... 2909957472


That's what I would think/logically makes sense... however I figure there must be a reason why feminism (even in college classes) pushes for the idea of a sexist wage gap. I would imagine that if it reaches such an academic level, there would be some truth to the matter, as suppressing the facts would seem very difficult. Of course, maybe I'm wrong, but people seem to believe there does exist some existent wage gap (not including the 70 cents/dollar argument).

Of course, maybe it's not so true and it's only used as an abbreviation in classes/discussions and I'm not really sure, hence the desire to see some research.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby raags » Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:52 am

Um someone correct me if I am wrong but most schools of feminist thought argue that it is patriarchal/oppressive factors which push women into roles that are less paid and thus this furthers gender segregation and oppression/marginalisation of women and this is bad. Which I agree with.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby mc-lunar » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:17 am

yeah i'm pretty sure @raags is right - the idea isn't that a man and a woman in the same job will earn different amounts of money, all else being equal, which seems to be what Vaeltaja is looking for research on, it's that the opportunities for men and women are different, all else being equal, which causes women to earn less than men on average and perpetuates itself because women have less role models in high-paid spots etc etc.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby ab167 » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:20 am

Vaeltaja wrote:
ramseames wrote:tbf i know a lot of nothing about these things but isn't the wage gap mostly related to career choice/amount of hours worked/mat leave being unpaid in the states?

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1 ... 2909957472


That's what I would think/logically makes sense... however I figure there must be a reason why feminism (even in college classes) pushes for the idea of a sexist wage gap. I would imagine that if it reaches such an academic level, there would be some truth to the matter, as suppressing the facts would seem very difficult. Of course, maybe I'm wrong, but people seem to believe there does exist some existent wage gap (not including the 70 cents/dollar argument).

Of course, maybe it's not so true and it's only used as an abbreviation in classes/discussions and I'm not really sure, hence the desire to see some research.


In part, it's about society/~the patriarchy~/whatever coaxing women into lower paying careers (not to mention the undervaluation of women-dominated careers) and decisions that will harm their job prospects BUT:

http://www.aauw.org/research/the-simple-truth-about-the-gender-pay-gap/

Some highlights:

The pay gap also exists among women without children.
AAUW’s Graduating to a Pay Gap found that among full-time workers one year after college graduation — nearly all of whom were childless — women were paid just 82 percent of what their male counterparts were paid.


In part, these pay gaps do reflect men’s and women’s choices, especially the
choice of college major and the type of job pursued after graduation. For
example, women are more likely than men to go into teaching, and this
contributes to the pay gap because teachers tend to be paid less than other
college graduates. This portion of the pay gap is considered to be explained,
regardless of whether teachers’ wages are considered fair.

Yet not all of the gap can be “explained away.” After accounting for college
major, occupation, economic sector, hours worked, months unemployed
since graduation, GPA, type of undergraduate institution, institution
selectivity, age, geographical region, and marital status, Graduating to a Pay
Gap found that a 7 percent difference in the earnings of male and female
college graduates one year after graduation was still unexplained.


See also: http://www.aauw.org/research/graduating-to-a-pay-gap/
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby MxmHrpr » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:39 pm

Why Women Aren't People, But Corporations Are

I imagine you guys on the other side of the pond have read to death Hobby Lobby, though I thought this was a particularly well written. Highest recommendations.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby raags » Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:27 pm

just a bit more on the pay gap topic - I read a study a while ago that indicated even when all the previously mentioned factors (job choice, experience, etc) women are still paid less than men (I believe the figure was 93c to the dollar - so 7% less). and this was attributable to judgments that women (of equal skill / experience) were judged by assessors to be less competent than men.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby klonopin » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:57 pm

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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby g2x222 » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:53 am

Can anyone suggest some reading material on the topics of feminism and social progress? Preferably a good primer that is easy to digest for someone new to these topics?
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby Stingray Sam » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:21 am

So i was wondering how much of C-T considers themselves feminists? I myself consider myself a feminist after FeministFatal brought up some convincing arguments as to why i should call myself that rather than just sympathize with feminism. For those of you who call yourself something else why? I've seen on the reddits people calling themselves egalitarians and whatnot and while I certainly don't mind people who ally themselves with feminists i haven't seen very convincing arguments as to why they call themselves something different. I also dislike the moniker egalitarian because of associations with the mens rights movement and all that entails.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby mc-lunar » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:55 am

If somebody asked me if I was a feminist it would honestly depend on who was asking, because "feminist" means totally different things to different people I know. To my grandmother I'd absolutely say I'm a feminist because I 100% agree with the values that the feminism she knows stands for. Same with my mother, although she's still young enough to understand that the term means different things to a lot of people my age (especially since my sister is HUUUGE into tumblr-type social & gender politics) so there's a discussion that we can have there about why some of my peers choose not to. To someone who reads r/tumblrinaction and r/cringepics or whatever, their definition of feminism is probably completely warped by extremist views so I can either tell them "yes I am but you're wrong about what it is" or just be like "nah I'm not crazy" depending how they think/how much I want to get into a "debate". To my sisters "gender-is-a-social-construct-and-therefore-completely-useless-I-subscribe-to-genderoftheday.tumblr.com" friends, "no" is the answer because what they think of as feminism is, in their minds, repressive and their 110% set in their views.

On another note - it really bugs me that anyone who tries to campaign for some of the issues that do affect men are instantly labeled an MRA (or worse who self-identify as an MRA without realizing the connotations that term has) and their concerns tend to be dismissed quickly. It seems like another case of "Oh, another group has it worse than you, so you're not allowed to complain and we will make you feel guilty for doing so".
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby mc-lunar » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:17 am

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The problem is that there is no actual standard or definition for what being a feminist is, which there definitely is for being Muslim (afaik?). In that case, the redneck is actually wrong. But if someone asks me if I'm a feminist and I know their only exposure to feminism is through extremists, that's what feminism is for them. Which means that I can either argue with them about definitions where neither of us are initially in the right, so to speak, and both of us are going to be essentially set in our views from the start.

My own personal view on feminism doesn't change based on who I'm talking to, but whether I will identify as one does.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby Stingray Sam » Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:28 am

see that's what i said, but FeministFatal made a point that feminism will never be accepted and will always have these negative connotations unless you are always a feminist. If someone misconstrues what feminism means then you should be ready to defend it, and if that person cannot have a reasoned conversation with you by virtue of you being a feminist then why are you even talking politics (or even talking) with them? Sure you might not be able to convince them but at least show people that feminists are well spoken people who don't want to castrate all men and can have a reasoned conversation about issue that is important to them. I think it's important for any social movement that people identify as belonging to it 100% of the time they belong to it and not doing so is harmful. So i'm going to have to agree with Charybdis (are you dwindles?) on the neg

On MRA's i agree it's terrible. They're so sneaky too on one hand they say they are for all these things that are good then they go off on rape apologia, women hating and what have you and they give men's social justice campaigns the worst rap. I've decided to just go with feminism is all inclusive and has and will help men. Trying to deal with so many labels is just too tiring and creates too much stress on semantics rather than actual real life action or theory
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby Stingray Sam » Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:38 am

I think this is a pretty good article on the sort of origins of third wave feminism, where it is at the time this was published and criticisms of third wave feminism. Even though it is an academic article it is pretty easy reading. I'd recommend reading it :sweg:

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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby Vaeltaja » Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:38 am

Stingray Sam wrote:So i was wondering how much of C-T considers themselves feminists? I myself consider myself a feminist after FeministFatal brought up some convincing arguments as to why i should call myself that rather than just sympathize with feminism. For those of you who call yourself something else why? I've seen on the reddits people calling themselves egalitarians and whatnot and while I certainly don't mind people who ally themselves with feminists i haven't seen very convincing arguments as to why they call themselves something different. I also dislike the moniker egalitarian because of associations with the mens rights movement and all that entails.


The short of it: I don't.

The longer part of it: I see no reason to be constrained to a label. Even more so, it's not a well defined label. At least the labels "metalhead" or "goatfucker" or even "heterosexual" are pretty well defined, even if you only like prog metal, cashmere goats, or women who are 5'8", have red hair, have heterochromia, and are allergic to lettuce. The main issue with the feminist label is the lack of (useful) definition. Perhaps that means the movement is ripe for splintering. Of course, this is all from a very USA view. In other countries feminism can be more easily defined (I'm thinking a more "third world" style nation, especially if they're not socially on the up and up). However, nowadays feminism is just this catch-all phrase for anything remotely woman-oriented. You have radical feminists and eco feminists and political feminists and feminists who only care about abortion rights or those who only want to be able to have sex/dress how they desire. They are all more-or-less valid movements (though some are more realistic or even morally or logically proper) and they all have a clear desire.

I guess I'd vaguely call myself an egalitarian.

However, I should ask you... what's wrong with men's rights? At the core of the nebulous feminist movement, there's a desire for gender equality. That's the vast, overarching theme I've seen with the nuances and execution and prioritizations changed for the various styles of movements. Following that logic, isn't a real "men's rights activist" (not in the strawman sense) just a feminist? I see the MRA as a feminist who just has a different priority, because in the end, feminism would also tackle those issues.

I also dislike feminism, or rather feminists, where every concept is boiled down into "patriarchy" or "internalized misogyny." Something feels incredibly wrong if every wrong in the world can be boiled down into one concept (since internalized misogyny is basically just an extension of the patriarchy). When every argument comes down to that, it just feels like the person(s) either doesn't understand the concept fully, or simply is not good with critical thinking. The same can also be said with the phrase "societal construct." Even if the answer is correct, it feels incredibly lazy, almost to the point of me trying to say the answer to 5 * 31.235 + 19 / 64 = "a positive number."
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby can- » Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:20 am

guys I think we'd be doing disservice to a very important conversation to drag MRA and tumblr into this thread.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby JonjoShelvey » Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:35 am

warning: us centric

Will Black American History ever be fully integrated into (american) grades 1-12? One of the most important parts of the USAs history and we are taught about it once a year during black history month. I just learned about the great migration a couple months ago by finding a wikipedia article about it, and I live near Chicago.


will white people ever stop crying about black history month?
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby purkinje » Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:45 am

^It differs from school to school I think. Black history was pretty well-integrated into the curriculum, not just for a month, in my high school social studies and english classes. We're getting closer to having black history not categorized as black history but simply as 'history' which is definitely a move in the right direction. This previous year in flaxy we read a few plays by August Wilson and were shown artwork by Romare Bearden and had several in-depth class discussions about the implications of their work, which was a breath of fresh air in a system which usually doesn't bring up media that discusses racial issues because it's a 'sensitive area.' The AP US History and even European History curriculum does a (relatively) good job covering black history. We definitely learned about the great migration.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby sparkyoriental » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:25 pm

This is so terrible, but as a queer woman, I just can't bring myself to care about gay rights, in particular marriage equality. I believe in marriage equality, of course, but it's not a social cause that I actively rally behind. I think it's partially because marriage equality already has plenty of popular support? idk
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