feminism and social progressivism thread

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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby starfox64 » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:21 pm

^ probably because it doesn't directly affect you (you're what? 21? probably not looking to get married yet) and because it seems kind of inevitable to most rational people that it will happen in the next few years. plus, on a day to day basis, do you frequently come across people who are opposed to it? i do not.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby Rosenrot » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:27 pm

sparkyoriental wrote:This is so terrible, but as a queer woman, I just can't bring myself to care about gay rights, in particular marriage equality. I believe in marriage equality, of course, but it's not a social cause that I actively rally behind. I think it's partially because marriage equality already has plenty of popular support? idk


Sex between men are illegal in Singapore, let alone getting married. Also relevant: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/j ... nguin-book

After much protests the library board decided to move the children's book to the Adult section. Oh the irony.

I have religious acquaintances who believe that homosexuality is unnatural, gay people shouldn't get married, etc. They're university-educated, and one of them is a teacher.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby Vaeltaja » Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:18 pm

Semi related: Can I actually say I'm part of a movement if I do nothing for it besides believing? It's always felt very disingenuous.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby IsaiahSchafer » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:20 pm

if i say i'm interested in helping male victims of domestic abuse, is the difference between how accepted this is whether or not i do it under the guise of feminism or men's rights? if so, that's shitty.

I see lots of arguments against being an MRA because women obviously have it worse. I don't think "who has it worse" is a worthwhile discussion. But if you're doing good and helping people who need help, does it matter what you are? Or who you help? If it's a race to the bottom to see who can advocate for/help the least advantaged individual, shouldn't all gender issues be abandoned in favor of ending genocide, starvation, spread of diseases like AIDs and malaria in africa, and children forced into war?

Unrelated, I'm interested less in studies, and more in anecdotes. I've never encountered (in a very conservative state, ranked like 49th in education spending) ever, girls being disadvantaged in regards to science or engineering, and I know we've got a lot of college aged girls on this forum. As a guy, I may just be ignorant, but what does this actually look like on an individual level? People being discouraged from doing certain majors? I only have experience going the other way- people questioning my sexuality/masculinity for my interests in artistic/fashion endeavors.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby hooplah » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:30 pm

amikrumpingnow wrote:I've never encountered (in a very conservative state, ranked like 49th in education spending) ever, girls being disadvantaged in regards to science or engineering, and I know we've got a lot of college aged girls on this forum.


it's not a flashing neon sign that says DISADVANTAGED, or necessarily a physical door being shut in the face of a girl who wants to switch to a STEM major. if you're only going to look at it on an individual level, you're not going to see it unless you maybe look holistically at that person's entire history (which careers were presented as viable to that girl growing up? how did her aspirations differ from those of her male peers? why? were heteronormative comments that shaped her thinking made to her on a regular basis?). that's like looking at a single cell and expecting to see a redwood tree.

if someone said they'd never seen racism in action and asserted it doesn't exist, you'd say that's foolish. maybe they're incredibly lucky. more likely, they just can't identify it when they see it.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby can- » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:33 pm

I can't personally explain how it came to be this way, but engineering majors tend to be male dominated. this is one of many factors which might keep women from studying engineering.

i think any feminist would be happy to see you or anyone help male rape victims. I think most feminists would be startled or alarmed when systems designed to protect children or women screw upstanding men over-- when poorly socialized women are given custody over economically and socially stable men, or when police are called in a domestic abuse situation and apprehend a male victim. no one is against men's rights or believes they don't deserve them, but when you invoke the term 'MRA' you are alluding to one of the most socially regressive voices in the conversation, and you'd have to be completely unaware to understand why people react to the term.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby IsaiahSchafer » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:41 pm

I asked for the individual experiences mostly because most women who see their lives ending with motherhood here have that going for them because they're mormon, and it's the mormon church which is 50 years in the past, not necessarily the rest of the state. So I guess I'm unsure what disadvantaged (in regards to STEM and the like) women actually look like in the "real world"- i.e. what stops women from becoming scientists when it's not because they live in a crazy state like Utah.

In regards to what ben is saying, i guess the label i'll use is "Advocate for Helping People" to avoid any connotation.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby maj » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:44 pm

you're not going to see it unless you maybe look holistically at that person's entire history (which careers were presented as viable to that girl growing up? how did her aspirations differ from those of her male peers? why? were heteronormative comments that shaped her thinking made to her on a regular basis?)


annecdote o'oclock.

me and my sister are one year apart, we've been to the same schools and had for the most part the same teachers for our whole life and have even finished school in the same year.

throughout my time i was pressured into sciences and math, i repeatedly said i hated this stuff but again and again i was told i had to do this to get a "good job", from my peers to my teachers to my family. if i failed my exams it's because i didn't work hard enough and didn't try, nothing else and i was essentially letting myself down. truth is i wanted to do arts and humanities, they were fun i loved drawing and i loved writing but they "weren't getting me anywhere". then we take my sister from year 7 she loved science but she struggled with it, but where these same teachers had told me to knuckle down there was no pressure for that, she was told it's ok maybe science isn't for you and in the end she got into the cycle of "i'm bad at it why should i try" fell into humanities which admittedly she likes but i can't help but feel if she was given the same support or even attitude by the teachers and my parents she'd be doing at least one science now for a level and possibly further, and inversely if i wasn't told that i "science would get me a job" i'd be doing art and graphic design. i clearly wasn't the only one because friends who had siblings in the school had a similar experience looking at what they took and what their brother/sister does, not to mention the obvious notable gender ratios in certain classes.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby turbulencex90 » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:53 pm

cameron- wrote:I can't personally explain how it came to be this way, but engineering majors tend to be male dominated. this is one of many factors which might keep women from studying engineering.


Speaking as a woman that just obtained her master's degree in chemical engineering, I think this trend is starting to shift. I primarily decided to go into engineering because I liked chemistry and math, and I also wanted to pursue a career in the oil & gas industry. Perhaps when we talk about engineering majors that were always considered to be predominantly for males, such as mechanical, civil or even electrical engineering, I could see your point. However, there are a lot of women in chemical, petroleum, biomedical, computer and even industrial engineering. I think one reason could be due to a lack of interest in the actual subjects, accompanied by a misunderstanding of what engineering really is (although who actually knows what it is right after high school?). Another can be attributed to the accompanied physical work some of the engineering majors demand. For example, most drilling engineers need to spend a substantial amount of time offshore, and rig work is a difficult aspect of the job.

Finally, it could also be lack of interest, or even lack of ambition to stick with the engineering program (not saying non-engineers are not ambitious). An engineering curriculum is fairly rigorous in nature, and I know a lot of men and women who dropped out or switched majors because it was too difficult for them to cope with.

There were many times when I questioned why I was doing it and why I didn't just run away and become a starving artist. Whatever the case may be, I would like to believe the hard work paid off and I will hopefully have a great job that pays lots of money to buy clothes and enjoy a good lifestyle, while simultaneously giving me career satisfaction. But one can only hope...
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby Stingray Sam » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:54 pm

A lot of people seem to have the misconception that feminism is strictly female orientated. This is wrong, at least from my perspective (and other feminists i've encountered irl). The reason i call myself a feminist is A) to (hopefully) present Feminism in a positive light B) as a sign of solidarity i.e. i ally myself with other feminists focusing on other things that might not be the most important to me C) because i think it is important to show and acknowledge that women have been and in many ways still are experiencing some form of oppression, and D) i believe that solving many female orientated problems will solve men's problems as well e.g. if the traditionally 'feminine' is no longer viewed in a more negative light then it will be more okay for men to participate in it. I do acknowledge that men have problems that are unique to them, but i do not think another movement is necessary to solve them.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby mc-lunar » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:38 pm

sparkyoriental wrote:This is so terrible, but as a queer woman, I just can't bring myself to care about gay rights, in particular marriage equality. I believe in marriage equality, of course, but it's not a social cause that I actively rally behind. I think it's partially because marriage equality already has plenty of popular support? idk


I actually have friends/acquaintances who hate the idea of rallying behind marriage rights. They think that it's actually a classist thing to be rallying for, because "for so many queer people, it's not actually something that matters", and they view it as "rich white males rights". I thought this was more deserving of a post than a rep comment so I'd like to ask if you think it's weird to look down on people for supporting issues that affect them more than others? Does this mean that the people who need help the most are the last people to get help?
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby ab167 » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:00 pm

amikrumpingnow wrote:Unrelated, I'm interested less in studies, and more in anecdotes. I've never encountered (in a very conservative state, ranked like 49th in education spending) ever, girls being disadvantaged in regards to science or engineering, and I know we've got a lot of college aged girls on this forum. As a guy, I may just be ignorant, but what does this actually look like on an individual level? People being discouraged from doing certain majors? I only have experience going the other way- people questioning my sexuality/masculinity for my interests in artistic/fashion endeavors.


Well, I think being more interested in anecdotes than data is pointless, but here's an anecdote: I minored in CS in undergrad, and in one course on the first day there were dudes loudly counting the women students as they entered (there were 3-4 out of about 25) and talking about us and our likely math prowess. The professor heard things like this and though he clearly did not endorse it--we got along quite well--he did nothing about it. The ringleader of those dudes was in a few more of my classes and was always bothered by my doing well and loudly comparing himself to me, in part because I am a woman and in part because my major was in the humanities. No professor ever said anything to him. One even seemed to find it funny and almost encouraged the guys to be embarrassed that they couldn't code or whatever as well as a girl when I did well.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby Vaeltaja » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:03 pm

Stingray Sam wrote:A lot of people seem to have the misconception that feminism is strictly female orientated. This is wrong, at least from my perspective (and other feminists i've encountered irl). The reason i call myself a feminist is A) to (hopefully) present Feminism in a positive light B) as a sign of solidarity i.e. i ally myself with other feminists focusing on other things that might not be the most important to me C) because i think it is important to show and acknowledge that women have been and in many ways still are experiencing some form of oppression, and D) i believe that solving many female orientated problems will solve men's problems as well e.g. if the traditionally 'feminine' is no longer viewed in a more negative light then it will be more okay for men to participate in it. I do acknowledge that men have problems that are unique to them, but i do not think another movement is necessary to solve them.


Isn't there a large problem with keeping everything in one group though? It seems the current wave of feminism (3rd/5th/Gaga/whatever it's called... completely unsure) faces the same problem OWS faced: there's a fairly clear endgoal, but everyone's shooting in different directions to achieve this. One of the quickest examples I can think of is sex-positive feminism vs the opposition (dunno the name) feminism. The end goal is the same, but the stepping stone is different (i.e. gender equality through the promotion of letting me use my body however I'd like vs gender equality through the admonishment of sex and porn in our culture as it oppresses and objectifies). So wouldn't a splintering of the groups actually make more sense?

I feel like the male inclusion to feminism is presented with two problems. The first is mostly societal. It's the same reason that many are laughed at by calling themselves "allies" in the LGBT(QA, etc). To many who look skeptically at these allies, they want to see what have they actually done? Is this for social brownie points? Did they actually join with reasons in mind, or is it just because gay marriage is the vogue issue? The other main problem is that men who wish to join the feminist... party? movement? and wish to actually see change will also be looked at skeptically if their movements are not in line with the current movement of feminism. That is, gender equality can be taken through a variety of means, but each angle has it's own problem. For instance, the ability to have an abortion is different from the desire to not be pushed into the cult of domesticity. Similarly, a man who wants to start going to fix issues that men have may be hostilely looked at as attempting to appropriate the feminist movement since he's going against the flow. Of course there's the reason that "it's not always about you" but I'm sure many do join because they wish to see change that directly impacts them.

Feminism probably is seen as woman-centric because a) the name feminism b) because the first and second waves were clearly for women. The third wave of non-middle class, people of color, women was eventually co-opted by white women. Even now we use third wave even if that's not the accurate term.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby Stingray Sam » Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:04 pm

Vaeltaja wrote:Isn't there a large problem with keeping everything in one group though? It seems the current wave of feminism (3rd/5th/Gaga/whatever it's called... completely unsure) faces the same problem OWS faced: there's a fairly clear endgoal, but everyone's shooting in different directions to achieve this. One of the quickest examples I can think of is sex-positive feminism vs the opposition (dunno the name) feminism


Well the thing is that Feminism isn't a monolith but i think that it's useful to continue to use the name feminism to refer to the general movement. In this instance you're actually referring to something that was a big deal in the 2nd wave. The article i linked to earlier in thread goes into detail about this and basically claims that 3rd wave feminism is just a continuation of the pro-sex faction of 2nd wave feminism and that the Pro-Censorship faction has largely died off. I think today most of the younger generation of feminists would consider themselves very much pro-sex, at least in theory.

I don't think that Feminism suffers from the same issues as OWS. From my understanding OWS lacked clear leadership and took a very convoluted anarchist approach to solving their issues that was eventually co-opted by a ton of people with a ton of complaints, many of them fairly petty. Feminism on the other hand is, as i see it, a big umbrella with a bunch of different groups underneath it that are all closely related in their origins and purpose. The difference between them is their specific scope and way they go about solving problems as well as their position in society (Academic vs on the street sort of thing). I don't think that these different factions of feminism lack leadership though, many of them are well cemented in literature and academia. For instance one can point to Catharine Mackinnon and Andrea Dworkin as largely influential Pro-Censorship feminists and Andrea Dworkin as a pretty influential radical feminist. Of course one does not have to agree with them by virtue of sharing the same general ideology, a liberal feminist would certainly disagree with a radical feminist and most feminists would disagree very strongly (i hope) with a TERF (trans-exclusionary radfem). I think it's very necessary to have these different factions or else there would be no discourse to allow us to (hopefully) determine the right way to go about things. There doesn't seem to much of an effort to keep all the groups together as one, rather more of an effort to promote intersectionality and groups working together for a common goal. For instance a radical feminist believes that our current society is inherently oppressive and patriarchal and in order to end oppression society must be completely reworked while a liberal feminist believes that we just need to pass more laws and precipitate societal change in order to end oppression. In the long run we might find that Radical Feminism is actually right but right now liberal feminists and radical feminists could come together to help reduce a current problem such as ending limited access to abortion and contraceptives.

It seems for the most part that there are different threads and groups of feminism that works for everyone who cares about issues pertaining towards gender equality and ending patriarchal society. I believe that there is space for everyone who is concerned about these issues too, and historically there has been times when there wasn't a space for trans people, men or POC, but as time went on they carved out a space for themselves. I do understand that feminism may seem unwelcoming towards men as it has been historically hostile towards us, but now it seems that you should be able to find a niche of feminists who you agree with ideologically. I also think that for the most part hostility towards men is overemphasized by the media and those who are opposed to feminism, and i and many others certainly admonish anyone who labels themselves a feminist but refuse to at least acknowledge the issues that men face today
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby Rosenrot » Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:10 pm

@freddy, it's a secular but conservative country. The government panders to the religious groups more often than they should.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby Stingray Sam » Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:13 pm

Sorry to keep posting, but what is everyone's opinions on enjoying and consuming media that may have themes that don't necessarily align with social movements you belong to? For instance i like to listen to A$AP Rocky occasionally but one can definitely point to instances where he has been less than ideal in terms of gender equality, the same goes for danny brown. Now i generally try to avoid songs or movies or books that express themes that go against feminist sensibilities, but sometimes they're really good. Should i not even listen to the artist because they have a couple songs that are bad? I know my SO, FeministFatal, refuses to listen to Pharrel or Robin Thicke because of the song blurred lines same goes with R. Kelly because of alleged sex crimes. I think that in this instance it is certainly justified to refuse to listen to the artists as well as actively campaign against them. But what about songs that aren't just basically rape apologia? Can i listen to Dope Fiend Rental by Danny Brown? If not can i listen to other songs by him?
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby ab167 » Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:04 pm

The idea of anti-men feminism is like a parody of 1970s lesbian feminism that never has and never will been representative of the majority of feminists.

I am just going to do a link dump because it is not rehashing arguments that have been made 123955798 times before. Not all of these are 100% solid on every point, and I will [probably] not respond to quibbles anyone has with them. This is more FYI than a call to discuss. I hope they help some of you "get" feminism and why it is important for everyone. Sorry if I missed anybody's pet issue.

Brief intros to many feminist concepts (and myths): http://www.shakesville.com/2010/01/feminism-101.html
On feminism being exclusionary towards men: http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com ... -argument/
On men's role in feminism and men's rights from a pro-feminist male perspective: http://www.xyonline.net/content/respond ... hts-groups
Intro to feminism reading list with very brief synopses: http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2012/06 ... ing-list/e
Someone has scanned bell hooks' Feminism is for Everybody, apparently in its entirety--a common Intro to WGS text: http://excoradfeminisms.files.wordpress ... rybody.pdf

hooks' definition of feminism from the final link has become quite famous, and if you buy it there is no problem with having a multi-faceted "feminism" under the umbrella of that name:
"Feminism is a movement to end sexism, sexist exploitation, and oppression.

But she also says that you cannot be an anti-choice feminist, so some of the folks that @Vaeltaja is worried about excluding are, in fact, excluded.

Stingray Sam wrote:Sorry to keep posting, but what is everyone's opinions on enjoying and consuming media that may have themes that don't necessarily align with social movements you belong to? For instance i like to listen to A$AP Rocky occasionally but one can definitely point to instances where he has been less than ideal in terms of gender equality, the same goes for danny brown. Now i generally try to avoid songs or movies or books that express themes that go against feminist sensibilities, but sometimes they're really good. Should i not even listen to the artist because they have a couple songs that are bad? I know my SO, FeministFatal, refuses to listen to Pharrel or Robin Thicke because of the song blurred lines same goes with R. Kelly because of alleged sex crimes. I think that in this instance it is certainly justified to refuse to listen to the artists as well as actively campaign against them. But what about songs that aren't just basically rape apologia? Can i listen to Dope Fiend Rental by Danny Brown? If not can i listen to other songs by him?


lol if I did not read, watch, or listen to any media that had political themes I found objectionable I would be out of work (I am a flaxy PhD student) and bored as hell. I try to curb economic support for *really* objectionably things though. And no Roman Polanski for me.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby UnwashedMolasses » Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:05 pm

I've dealt with similar issues in hip-hop, particularly with regard to misogyny. In my personal experience it's seemed to be a matter of execution and extremity of the misogyny that makes it tolerable vs intolerable. Take Xxplosive by Dr. Dre - incredible beat, catchy song, but that first verse is just SO heavy handed, it makes it impossible for me to enjoy. Other songs referring to women as hos or bitches in a less extreme/violent way I don't tend to have a problem with. To be fair, I'm also not the victim of the language. I know @iDoMolasses can't enjoy a lot of the hip-hop that I do simply due to its explicit or misogynistic content.

This actually reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask. Was listening to my local hip-hop radio station and they had a call-in section asking men how much they'd be willing to spend on their side piece. The entire concept of a side piece sickens me for obvious reasons, and I've never once heard anyone refer to a woman having a side piece. Obviously there's no concrete line you can refer to when it comes to appreciating the context behind an aspect of a culture vs embracing that aspect of that culture vs condemning that aspect of that culture. This covers religious quarrels, nationalism, taught racism etc. - how do you determine what can be written off as acceptable in context? When can you say "this aspect of this culture that is not mine is not acceptable to any culture"?
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby parastexis » Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:09 pm

mc-lunar wrote:I actually have friends/acquaintances who hate the idea of rallying behind marriage rights. They think that it's actually a classist thing to be rallying for, because "for so many queer people, it's not actually something that matters", and they view it as "rich white males rights". I thought this was more deserving of a post than a rep comment so I'd like to ask if you think it's weird to look down on people for supporting issues that affect them more than others? Does this mean that the people who need help the most are the last people to get help?


Sorry to derail (though I guess this relates to social progressivism) but I feel the same way about marijuana legalization. Once young affluent white people get what they want, the rest of the drug war will be neglected when it is exactly the rest of the drug war that disproportionately and unfairly affects minorities and the poor.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby charybdis » Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:20 am

mc-lunar wrote:Image

The problem is that there is no actual standard or definition for what being a feminist is, which there definitely is for being Muslim (afaik?). In that case, the redneck is actually wrong. But if someone asks me if I'm a feminist and I know their only exposure to feminism is through extremists, that's what feminism is for them. Which means that I can either argue with them about definitions where neither of us are initially in the right, so to speak, and both of us are going to be essentially set in our views from the start.

My own personal view on feminism doesn't change based on who I'm talking to, but whether I will identify as one does.


@mc-lunar That analogy was clunky but I think the this comic pretty much sums up how I feel when people cite whole groups of ~extremist feminists~ that they've really only seen on tumblr/heard about in anecdotes on Reddit.

Spoiler:
Image


Yeah, there will always be pockets of people with super extreme and unhealthy views, but isn't that true for every group ever? It's sort of like saying all figure skaters are racist because Gracie Gold made a racist tweet that one time. Or less ridiculously, characterizing the civil rights movement as a movement to destroy white people. :/ (Racists are still getting a lot of mileage out of the more extreme parts of the Black Panther Party.)

I think that the extremists might seem more visible regards to feminism because usually people might be feminists but they don't bring it up a lot/spend a lot of time writing internet posts about it? (I mostly only bring up feminism in casual conversations with people if it's relevant to current events or if we're talking about a show or something and I hate/love the depiction of women in it.)

Also, it might be worth noting that your sister and all these tumblr girls you so disparage are largely young kids who are going to grow out of these sorts of extreme views. (Or one should hope that they will.) When I was a junior in high school, I went on this personal crusade to ~~only read literature~~ and was super obnoxious about it and, while I want to punch that version of myself in the face sometimes, during that period of time I read a lot of great novels and I sort of learned a little bit of humility when later I ate my words in a major way.

I'm not really saying that you can't do what you want to, but I sort of resent your characterization of people with extreme views as representative of feminism when for most normal people, it's not.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby SteevMike » Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:20 am

Stingray Sam wrote:Sorry to keep posting, but what is everyone's opinions on enjoying and consuming media that may have themes that don't necessarily align with social movements you belong to? For instance i like to listen to A$AP Rocky occasionally but one can definitely point to instances where he has been less than ideal in terms of gender equality, the same goes for danny brown. Now i generally try to avoid songs or movies or books that express themes that go against feminist sensibilities, but sometimes they're really good. Should i not even listen to the artist because they have a couple songs that are bad? I know my SO, FeministFatal, refuses to listen to Pharrel or Robin Thicke because of the song blurred lines same goes with R. Kelly because of alleged sex crimes. I think that in this instance it is certainly justified to refuse to listen to the artists as well as actively campaign against them. But what about songs that aren't just basically rape apologia? Can i listen to Dope Fiend Rental by Danny Brown? If not can i listen to other songs by him?


@Stingray Sam @UnwashedMolasses

Here's two super good articles that really helped me reconcile these kinds of feelings + really expand my perspective.

http://pantograph-punch.com/eat-it-up-and-lay-wit-it-hip-hop-cunnilingus-and-morality-in-entertainment/ (some nsfw pictures, but great. the author is one of my favourite people)

http://www.socialjusticeleague.net/2011/09/how-to-be-a-fan-of-problematic-things/
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby sidewalk » Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:37 am

The "social progressivism" that is feminism is not something I agree with outside of 3rd world countries where inequality based on gender is nearly mandated. Call me a humanist, the goal should be equality, not the rights of a sect. How is it academically valid or realistically applicable to subject your personal experiences with harassment based on gender to legislation? Does this phenomenon of "domination" (male/female dominated fields) exist on both sides of the fence? It does, so pin-pointing instances is a complacent tactic being used to further an agenda. It's not right that a female should feel targeted by her male counterparts in a field such as engineering, but how do you compare that to the alternative (ie. male nurse jokes) and "train" society otherwise?

Maj's point is that the two genders are treated separately throughout development, and thus chose different paths. However, is this a topic that feminists should be fighting to change? Absolutely not. It's not discrimination against women (if it is, it's just as much discrimination against men), and there aren't men/women/the patriachy/the matriarchy/the reptilian agenda pulling the strings behind the parents and teachers having expectations for their son or daughter. This idea takes a female perspective of male dominated fields and sets out with an initiative to find somebody to blame. When ab167 says "this fields is male dominated" she is only stating a fact, yet is using it as a decisive tool to prove a point. Although, the "point" she has is unclear. Are you proposing that it is inherently bad that more men are in this particular field than women? That women have been persuaded and influenced throughout their life to choose otherwise? Would you be saying the same had the roles been reversed? I can guarantee you've been in a situation where you a part of the majority, and a/the minority felt discriminated against. Yet since it wasn't you, it is not of memory or acknowledgement. How is your experience with "guys counting girls in the class" comparable to elsewhere? Are a few people making jokes enough for you to say that women are irrefutably seen as lesser beings in this field? Is this cognitive (confirmation) bias or societal discrimination?

To summarize, what 'is' and 'isnt' valid and changeable discrimination? Does counting the amount of girls in your engineering class equate to sexism or lackluster humor based on sexual desire? Is your professor not stepping in a sexist action or a difference in tolerance? Is bullying among small children more prevalent amongst males or females, and if so, is that sexism? Is having different initiatives for your son than your daughter sexism or is it based on subjective ignorance? It's not like slavery or segregation. These 'gender roles' aren't plastered on signs and people don't go to prison for not doing as 'expected' of them. There needs to be a more testable, provable, and re-workable groundwork for such claims, because as it stands, everything comes down to subjective experience and interpretation (in this context).

With that said, where is the talk about men vs. women in divorce and/or custody cases? Or the incarceration rates? Why is it that we understand the reasoning behind why certain races make up the majority of the prison population (based on region), yet we can't understand any circumstance where women are a minority? Do we continue to completely ignore biological factors when talking about sports or the work force? Does rational discussion go out the window because we are talking about a subject that has a reputation for people to militantly disagree with you because they have the right to 'take offense'? Everything in here seems like vague questions and then people heroically overgeneralizing against contentions that haven't been raised.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby Iliam » Sat Jul 19, 2014 6:58 am

hello, sorry to post something that isn't really a response to any of the posts so far but I thought some of you might be interested in this: I recently watched D. A. Pennebaker's film Town Bloody Hall (feat. above). It's a documentary that records a 1971 panel on the "women's liberation" movement. It mostly centers on Germaine Greer (reppin' my home country, australia), who had become a celebrity after the success of her book, The Female Eunuch, a book that was/ is central to the feminist movement. What's interesting is the range of feminist perspectives represented by the panelists, from proto-third wave to beat poetry inflected lesbian radicalism. It's in the "cinema verite" style so there are no talking heads, no voice-of-god voice overs, no cut away graphs etc and so its not anywhere near as politically coercive as a lot of contemporary documentaries. I really recommend to anyone interested in the dividing lines of feminism and the history of feminism. It also features some pretty big 'intellectual' celebrities: Norma Mailer, Germaine Greer, Susan Sontag and Betty Friedan and its cool to watch them back in the day and see Greer shoot down Mailer for his small mindedness.

you can watch the whole thing here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXM6KuD8ZNI ... if anyone does decide to watch i'd be really interested to know what you think about it
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby ab167 » Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:46 am

sidewalk wrote: the goal should be equality, not the rights of a sect.

That *is* the goal of feminism.

How is it academically valid or realistically applicable to subject your personal experiences with harassment based on gender to legislation?

What? Is it academically valid or realistically applicable to subject your personal experiences with murder or being robbed to legislation? What does this even mean? (Also, feminism is about deep social structures that may not be legislatable--workplace discrimination based on race, gender, etc. is already illegal)

Does this phenomenon of "domination" (male/female dominated fields) exist on both sides of the fence? It does, so pin-pointing instances is a complacent tactic being used to further an agenda. It's not right that a female should feel targeted by her male counterparts in a field such as engineering, but how do you compare that to the alternative (ie. male nurse jokes) and "train" society otherwise?

To risk a cliche: the patriarchy hurts men, too. And feminists address this both directly and indirectly, so I not sure what your point is, except to set up a kind of straw feminism that doesn't and can't care about men.

Maj's point is that the two genders are treated separately throughout development, and thus chose different paths. However, is this a topic that feminists should be fighting to change? Absolutely not.

Why?

It's not discrimination against women (if it is, it's just as much discrimination against men), and there aren't men/women/the patriachy/the matriarchy/the reptilian agenda pulling the strings behind the parents and teachers having expectations for their son or daughter.

People do not consciously decide all of their beliefs and biases--we are born into and acculturated into a society. So [many] people are not consciously doing any of these things, and yet they happen. ~sociology~

Would you be saying the same had the roles been reversed? I can guarantee you've been in a situation where you a part of the majority, and a/the minority felt discriminated against. Yet since it wasn't you, it is not of memory or acknowledgement. How is your experience with "guys counting girls in the class" comparable to elsewhere?

lol glad to know that you know me so well. (I could cite instances of my own altruistic interest in other kinds of social progressivism but that would be self-indulgent and feeding the ad hominem.)

Is bullying among small children more prevalent amongst males or females, and if so, is that sexism?

While there are some biological differences that might have a meaningful effect on this, it is due, largely, to the way children are raised, so while I would not call it sexism, I would call it a feminist issue.

With that said, where is the talk about men vs. women in divorce and/or custody cases? Or the incarceration rates?

I do not know what to tell you, except that these *are* feminist issues to me and by many feminists' definition (certainly by the bell hooks' definition I posted above).

And since you seem to think that discrimination against women is not a real thing that happens, or it only happens in equal and opposite proportion to men, I will cite a statistic I posted upthread RE: the idea that women get paid less because of life decisions or whatever:

In part, it's about society/~the patriarchy~/whatever coaxing women into lower paying careers (not to mention the undervaluation of women-dominated careers) and decisions that will harm their job prospects BUT:

The pay gap also exists among women without children.
AAUW’s Graduating to a Pay Gap found that among full-time workers one year after college graduation — nearly all of whom were childless — women were paid just 82 percent of what their male counterparts were paid.

http://www.aauw.org/research/graduating-to-a-pay-gap/

Is that concrete and ungeneralized enough?
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby Rosenrot » Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:19 am

sidewalk wrote:The "social progressivism" that is feminism is not something I agree with outside of 3rd world countries where inequality based on gender is nearly mandated.


I'm assuming you have little knowledge of the rampant sexism against women that is prevalent in all aspects of Japanese culture, whether at work, home, school, or in any environment women find themselves in. Even if it's not mandated many of the female Japanese workers go through so much bullshit that hampers their career.

sidewalk wrote:Call me a humanist, the goal should be equality, not the rights of a sect. How is it academically valid or realistically applicable to subject your personal experiences with harassment based on gender to legislation? Does this phenomenon of "domination" (male/female dominated fields) exist on both sides of the fence? It does, so pin-pointing instances is a complacent tactic being used to further an agenda. It's not right that a female should feel targeted by her male counterparts in a field such as engineering, but how do you compare that to the alternative (ie. male nurse jokes) and "train" society otherwise?



I don't know what kind of feminism you've been reading into, but I'm a feminist who believes in equality for both men and women. That means boys can wear dresses if they want, be a nurse without getting scoffed at, and not be called a fucking wuss if they cry over a breakup.

Just because a movement has the word 'fem' in it doesn't mean we want females to surge ahead of males. The majority of feminists don't want any sort of domination, just the removal of SYSTEMIC oppression and equal choices for all genders. Too often we babble over what we want to achieve, and how to get there, but at the end of the day it is a movement that benefits everyone. It's the same as democracy. People argue over its definition, what they want out of it and how to achieve it, but at the end of the day they know it's what they need for the progress of their nation.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby sidewalk » Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:04 pm

When all we do is pick and choose sentences and twist them out of context to create an argument that had nothing to do with the original statement, what is the point of having a discourse? It's almost as though you ignored every point I made (and the justifications behind them) and decided to refute single sentences that said something different than the rest of the point.

That *is* the goal of feminism.


Yet here we are only discussing womens issues. I wasn't make a point that stated otherwise, and this sentence wasn't meant to hold weight aside from the statement that it was.

Maj's point is that the two genders are treated separately throughout development, and thus chose different paths. However, is this a topic that feminists should be fighting to change? Absolutely not.


Why?


You then go on to say, "People do not consciously decide all of their beliefs and biases". Therefore, how do you propose a change? What research exists to pin-point the causes of this segregating of attitude?

What? Is it academically valid or realistically applicable to subject your personal experiences with murder or being robbed to legislation? What does this even mean? (Also, feminism is about deep social structures that may not be legislatable--workplace discrimination based on race, gender, etc. is already illegal)


I'm not sure how your point about murder is pertinent in any way. I asked how you legislate things like "giving women equal opportunity", how you legislate the feeling of harassment based on gender (against something like the freedom of speech), and how somebodies definition of sexism is applicable. There's women who refuse to identify as feminists because there is a lot of ridiculous claims floating around. The one that pops in my mind is the one about the woman who got asked on a date in an elevator and turned it into an argument against a male-dominated society. Exactly where does the line begin and end when argument that like are seen as sexism?

lol glad to know that you know me so well. (I could cite instances of my own altruistic interest in other kinds of social progressivism but that would be self-indulgent and feeding the ad hominem.)


My statement wasn't directed to you. It was a rhetorical question based on a talking point.

While there are some biological differences that might have a meaningful effect on this, it is due, largely, to the way children are raised, so while I would not call it sexism, I would call it a feminist issue.


Another answer to a rhetorical question. An answer that has nothing to do with the context.

I will cite a statistic I posted upthread RE: the idea that women get paid less because of life decisions or whatever:

In part, it's about society/~the patriarchy~/whatever coaxing women into lower paying careers (not to mention the undervaluation of women-dominated careers) and decisions that will harm their job prospects BUT:


So women can't think for themselves and are "coaxed" (in your own words) into careers they don't actually want? Interesting how you belittle women in such a way. How is this not equally intrinsic to incarceration (male vs. female)? Why is this your refutation against equal discrimination amongst both genders?
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby chilljin » Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:06 pm

hey cant we all be friends
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby ab167 » Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:15 pm

sidewalk wrote:
lol glad to know that you know me so well. (I could cite instances of my own altruistic interest in other kinds of social progressivism but that would be self-indulgent and feeding the ad hominem.)


My statement wasn't directed to you. It was a rhetorical question based on a talking point.


I really do not have the time or patience to respond to all of this (I think if you'll read the intro to feminism links I posted upthread, then many of your objections will be fully addressed, though I doubt if that will stop you from having them), but you did explicitly name me, so...

The other outright misreadings and willful misunderstands I will chalk up to your non-interest in an actual good-faith discussion.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby IsaiahSchafer » Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:17 pm

starting to read some of the links ab167 posted.. the shakesville author, in my opinion, shouldn't be considered a source. She has some statistics, yeah, that i'm sure are true, but she doesn't source anything. And statements about how she is only considered a vagina and uterus surrounded by meat isn't really credible in a discussion like this?

Also, the site seems to be full of blatant lies about the causes of obesity and how the human body works.
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Re: feminism and social progressivism thread

Postby zayg » Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:43 pm

there are crazy extremists in regards to all belief systems. you should disregard that garbage because of the "crazy extremist" part, not the feminist part.

my mom is a real estate agent. she got a lead through her company the other day for a house but the sellers had no interest in even speaking with her because she was a woman. pretty ridiculous to deal with.

fortunately she will get a 25% referral fee and if my math checks out, 25% of her commission for 0 hours of work is pretty good compared to 100% for many hours of work. still, it blows my mind that living in a relatively liberal area still has people with this mindset. apparently the sellers had a bad experience with a woman agent before, but i don't exactly understand how someone can rationalize that all women real estate agents are incompetent because of that one experience. dude clearly thinks pretty low of all women in this case, and even had to get his wife to be the one to say that they weren't interested in using a woman.
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