News/Current Events, discussion (Bullets, Ballots & Bombs)

Off topic

Re: News/Current Events, discussion (Bullets, Ballots & Bomb

Postby rublev » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:28 pm

‘Revolution? What Revolution?’ Russia Asks 100 Years Later

Image

MOSCOW — The Kremlin plans to sit out the centenary of the Russian Revolution.

Never mind that the upheavals of 1917 transformed the country and the world, abruptly ending the long rule of the czars, ushering in the Communist era and spawning an ideological confrontation with the West that still resonates.

There will be no national holiday on Sunday, March 12, the date generally recognized as the start of the uprising. Nor will there even be a government-issued official interpretation, like the one mandating that World War II was a “Great Victory.”

The official reason proffered for ignoring the event is that Russia remains too divided over the consequences of that fateful year.

The more likely explanation, some Kremlin officials, historians and other analysts say, is that President Vladimir V. Putin loathes the very idea of revolution, not to mention the thought of Russians dancing in the streets to celebrate the overthrow of any ruler. Moreover, 1917 smudges the Kremlin’s version of Russian history as a long, unified march to greatness, meant to instill a sense of national pride and purpose.

For the record, the Kremlin is sticking to the official line of avoiding domestic discord.

“For one group of people, the revolution was the death knell of Great Russia — it was ‘Brexit,’ when we stopped our development in Europe,” said Mikhail Shvydkoy, Mr. Putin’s special representative on cultural matters, in an interview in the wood-paneled cafe at the Central House of Writers, a prerevolutionary mansion. “For many other people, the Soviet past was the best time of their lives.”

Spoiler:
Mr. Putin strives to unite the country, he said, whereas “any festivities on the state level would deepen those divisions.”

Despite the widespread perception that the czar was overthrown in what the Soviets called the Great October Socialist Revolution, there were two revolutions in 1917. The February Revolution (now falling in March, given a different calendar) deposed the czar and replaced him with a provisional government that introduced liberal reforms like universal suffrage. Eight months later, Lenin and his marginal Bolshevik faction engineered a remarkable coup that gave rise to the world’s first communist state.

Mr. Putin’s critiques of the revolution contrast markedly with his usual glowing tributes to Russian history.

“We know well the consequences that these great upheavals can bring,” he said in his state of the federation speech in December. “Unfortunately, our country went through many such upheavals and their consequences in the 20th century.”

At an earlier public forum, after disparaging Lenin, he said, “We didn’t need the world revolution.”

The president shunted the anniversary off into the realm of academia, appointing a special committee to organize seminars and the like.

Previously, the official narrative was an essay written by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, in which he argued that deep distrust between the court and the educated elite along with German meddling brought about catastrophe.

The latter fits the Kremlin narrative that Russia has long been besieged by foreign aggressors and that the West strives to implant friendly governments everywhere by sponsoring “color revolutions.” Columnists have been lumping 1917 among more recent color revolutions in places like Georgia and Ukraine, naturally listing the United States among the suspected agitators.

There is also a damning lack of heroic figures in the revolution. Czar Nicholas II was deposed and thus weak. Alexander F. Kerensky, the central figure in the provisional government, proved ineffective. Lenin fomented appalling bloodshed and destroyed the Russian Orthodox Church, a pillar of Mr. Putin’s support.

“Vladimir Putin cannot compare himself to Nicholas II, nor to Lenin nor to Kerensky, because that is not Russian history to be proud of,” said Mikhail Zygar, a Russian journalist and the author of a best-selling book, “All the Kremlin’s Men,” which details the inner workings of the Putin government. “In terms of 1917, nothing can be used as a propaganda tool.”

In comparison, the Kremlin has turned World War II into the apogee of national unity.

In the absence of official spin, other factions are only too happy to provide some, often referring to current events. At one recent forum, Vladimir R. Medinsky, the conservative minister of culture, said the revolution underscored the dangers of letting liberals rule, because they always put self-interest above Russia.

Metropolitan Hilarion of the Russian Orthodox Church, speaking at the same event, lambasted those who destroyed the czarist state rather than seeking compromise.

Liberals retort that a repressive government ignoring vast income disparity and curbing basic rights should be worried about history repeating itself.

“The authorities cannot celebrate 1917,” said Nikita Sokolov, a historian. “Whatever might have happened, the impulse of the revolution was social justice. A country with such inequality can’t celebrate this. Also, the authorities think that any revolution is a color revolution.”

For the Communist Party — an ever-weaker link in the loyal opposition — the establishment of the Soviet Union was a singular achievement. It plans to celebrate not least with parades in Moscow and elsewhere on Nov. 7, which in Soviet times was the main national holiday.

Amid the mudslinging, there are efforts to bring the momentous events to life.

Mr. Zygar, a former editor in chief of the independent TV Rain news channel, established one of the more ambitious projects, called Project 1917.

Excavating a vast trove of historical archives, he and his young staff compiled a Facebook imitation, chronicling 1917, in Russian and English. It uses snippets from the diaries of hundreds of mostly prominent Russians of that epoch to create a snapshot of every single day, including the weather.

On March 8, for example, as the St. Petersburg bread riots gathered steam, there is Nicholas II lamenting that his children have the measles. Others focused on the mushrooming chaos. Mikhail Rodzianko, the head of the Duma, or Parliament, wrote, “Something was broken today, and the state machine derailed.”

On March 15, the day of his abdication, the czar wrote, “All around there is treason, cowardice and deceit.” The next day he mentioned reading a book about Julius Caesar, then avoided political references until April, Mr. Zygar noted.

If the emperor was phlegmatic, scores of others are more stimulating. It was the era of Russian giants in literature, ballet, painting, music and movies — people like Serge Diaghilev, Igor Stravinsky, Sergei Eisenstein, Vladimir Mayakovsky and Kazimir Malevich. Political figures such as Lenin, Maxim Gorky and Leon Trotsky weigh in often.

“Almost all the most famous Russians known in the world happened to live at that time,” said Mr. Zygar, who was first inspired to write a history of the epoch called “The Empire Must Die,” and then dreamed up the website to try to reach a wider audience.

Many historians and others note that Russia lives with a certain ambivalence toward 1917. Although many perceive it as having wrecked the country, its symbols are still enmeshed in the fabric of daily life.

At a recent forum, Leonid Reshetnikov, a historian and retired lieutenant general in Russia’s foreign intelligence service, described trying to explain to his granddaughter why the city of Yekaterinburg had a church dedicated to the czar and his family, who were canonized by the church, as well as a monument to the local Bolshevik commander believed to have ordered them shot there.

“We live in historical schizophrenia, with these monuments to Lenin, to all of them,” he said, going on to denounce any street protesters as potential revolutionaries.

“How do we explain to young people that they must not be revolutionaries, that they must be loyal citizens — yes, fight for Russia, wish it well, but under no circumstances plot, overthrow, march, kill?”


side note

Image

Image

romanov flintstone

also, slightly related - new colour images / video of 1950s soviet russia from the 'long hidden' martin manhoff archive is worth a look, some amazing new footage and photos of stalin's funeral

Image
  • 5

User avatar
rublev
Political Editor
 
Posts: 989
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:57 pm
Reputation: 4232

Re: News/Current Events, discussion (Bullets, Ballots & Bomb

Postby rublev » Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:14 pm



minsk this afternoon

Riot police in Minsk have arrested hundreds of people, beating many of them, during a violent crackdown on a protest against Belarusian President Alyaksandr Lukashenka's government.

Tatsyana Revyako, an activist from the Belarusian human rights group Vyasna (Spring), said more than 400 people were arrested on the streets of the Belarusian capital on March 25.

Revyako said that "many of the arrested were beaten and are in need of medical assistance."

The Belarusian Journalists’ Association said 20 journalists who were covering the unauthorized demonstration were also detained by authorities.

RFE/RL correspondent Alyaksandra Dynko described the police violence as "brutal."

Dynko said elderly citizens, some disabled and as old as in their 80s, were roughed up by several police who violently shoved them into police vehicles.

She said police also used batons to beat young men and women, and even teenagers under the age of 18, if they passively resisted arrest by sitting on the ground in a gesture of nonviolent protest.

As many as five police would hold a person while another officer beat them with a baton on their torso and legs, Dynko said. She said those who questioned why they were being detained were also beaten with police batons.


good background on what's going on in belarus here
  • 1

User avatar
rublev
Political Editor
 
Posts: 989
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:57 pm
Reputation: 4232

Re: News/Current Events, discussion (Bullets, Ballots & Bomb

Postby rublev » Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:22 am

@rjbman yeah incredible scenes across russia today, not seen anything like it since 2011/12/13. st petersburg to vladivostok. navalny (who called for the protests) has been arrested, his anti-corruption offices raided etc.

Image

'iconic photograph'

protests all started with this

Aexei Navalny, the lawyer turned activist turned political prisoner-turned-presidential candidate, has a fund dedicated to exposing corruption in Russia. On Thursday, it published an exposition on one particularly well-known Russian: Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev.

The investigation, published on Navalny’s Anti-Corruption Fund’s website, notes that, while some call the prime minister “Dimon” so as to characterize him as pathetic, “He’s not Dimon. He’s serious uncle corruption.”

ACF alleges that, in addition to the summer home it exposed last year, Medvedev owns another mansion outside of Moscow worth 5 billion rubles ($85 million), a mountain residence in Russia’s Krasnodar region, and a fourth mansion in the Kursk region (described by ACF as Medvedev’s “ancestral home”). Additionally, ACF alleges that Medvedev owns plots of land in Krasnodar, a building in St. Petersburg, an Italian vineyard, and yachts.

Most damningly, if ACF is to be believed, the estate is not in Medvedev’s name, but in that of various puppet charity foundations and firms, overseeing holdings that span a continent. “The corrupt officials usually try to hide their activities, but these people are acting almost in the open. Hundreds of people are engaged in servicing Medvedev and his properties. And they all see, know and understand, who owns these dachas protected by the state special services,” the report’s conclusion states.


you can read more about it / watch a video here

bizarrely a main part of the story started with medvedev's shoe collection

Image

clearly into his trainers

Image
Image

some raf too
  • 5

User avatar
rublev
Political Editor
 
Posts: 989
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:57 pm
Reputation: 4232

Re: News/Current Events, discussion (Bullets, Ballots & Bomb

Postby rublev » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:08 pm

Image

vs.

Image

=

Image
  • 2

User avatar
rublev
Political Editor
 
Posts: 989
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:57 pm
Reputation: 4232

Re: News/Current Events, discussion (Bullets, Ballots & Bomb

Postby rublev » Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:37 pm



i forgot there was a snap election in the thick of it

"let's set fire to tears"
  • 2

User avatar
rublev
Political Editor
 
Posts: 989
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:57 pm
Reputation: 4232

Re: News/Current Events, discussion (Bullets, Ballots & Bomb

Postby rublev » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:05 pm

Image

Image

waiting for answers
  • 7

User avatar
rublev
Political Editor
 
Posts: 989
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:57 pm
Reputation: 4232

Re: News/Current Events, discussion (Bullets, Ballots & Bomb

Postby rublev » Mon May 01, 2017 5:10 pm

tolerant left out in force today. here's john mcdonnell speaking in front of the CPGB-ML flag (and the syrian)

Image

@bels see, it's the blairites talking jez down that has undermined labour
  • 4

User avatar
rublev
Political Editor
 
Posts: 989
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:57 pm
Reputation: 4232

Re: News/Current Events, discussion (Bullets, Ballots & Bomb

Postby nope » Tue May 02, 2017 8:46 am

Junker: "May living in another galaxy & totally deluding herself"

Brexit is going well then

https://twitter.com/JeremyCliffe/status ... 3353367552
  • 2

User avatar
nope
 
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:25 pm
Reputation: 637

Re: News/Current Events, discussion (Bullets, Ballots & Bomb

Postby rublev » Tue May 02, 2017 2:21 pm

just to be clear, CPGB-ML are not the tolerant left - they're a nasty / hateful organisation that worship stalin (and other murderous dictators), are prone to historical revisionism, and even dabble in holocaust denial

also, while i welcome the confirmation of our ineptitude, i also fear this leak will 1) make TM keep cards closer to her chest through the negotiations 2) reinforce the brexit mob and their 'UK vs. EU!' mentality
  • 3

User avatar
rublev
Political Editor
 
Posts: 989
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:57 pm
Reputation: 4232

Re: News/Current Events, discussion (Bullets, Ballots & Bomb

Postby maj » Sat May 06, 2017 10:33 am

have to admit i had no idea who the CPGB-ML were until i googled and they are defo "not the good lefties"

but googling the context of this photo adds a bit more to it

http://www.londonmayday.org/

the march itself which mcdonell was asked to speak at is organised by the London mayday organising committee and is a separate org.

CPGB-ML may have been there, but they're certainly not on the "official roster"

GLATUC, S&ERTUC, UNITE London & Eastern Region, CWU London Region, PCS London & South East Region, ASLEF, RMT, TSSA, NUT, MU London, FBU London & Southern Regions ,GMB London & Southern Regions, UNISON Greater London Region, Peoples Assembly, NPC, GLPA and other Pensioners’ organisations and organisations representing Turkish, Kurdish, Chilean, Colombian, Peruvian, Portuguese, West Indian, Sri Lankan, Cypriot, Tamil, Iraqi, Iranian, Irish, Nigerian migrant workers & communities plus many other trade union & community organisations



criticism should be levelled at the CPMGB-ML , mayday for allowing their presence; even johnny for not doing a "thick of it" test (it's defo not a good look). but it's not like he's is a full paid up member/ article writer/ advocate for CPGM-ML or at least i cant find any direct links between them but they do seem to like him.

i'd say this photo is the least of labours worries.
  • 2

Major General John "Hacks" Dunning (Viscount Windsor) aka peak angry nerd
User avatar
maj
 
Posts: 1398
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:44 pm
Location: the midlands (woo)
Reputation: 8668

Re: News/Current Events, discussion (Bullets, Ballots & Bomb

Postby rublev » Mon May 08, 2017 5:38 am

yeah sure, the reality is that the photo is comparably trivial. but in the world of citizen journalism, 'political optics', my grandmother owning an iphone etc, under no circumstances can the shadow chancellor stand below the flag of a holocaust denying communist party. i'm sure he's not a supporter (although its now revived the 'are you a marxist?' questions), but it just smacks of gross incompetence. and in a week where diane abbott revealed she can't count it kinda hints at the amateurish level labour are operating at. local elections were a disaster - trying to spin not collapsing in wales as a success is embarrassing.

so far it seems like labour think they'll win more support by simply arguing they're not the conservatives. arguing that you're not the opposition works when you have a positive centrist international vision and the opposition is the populist radical right (france). it won't work when your opposition is a unified, organised, ruthless, (comparably) competent centre-right party and you have no idea who your core vote is anymore (u guessed it... the UK).
  • 3

User avatar
rublev
Political Editor
 
Posts: 989
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:57 pm
Reputation: 4232

Re: News/Current Events, discussion (Bullets, Ballots & Bomb

Postby rublev » Sun May 21, 2017 4:49 pm

Image
  • 2

User avatar
rublev
Political Editor
 
Posts: 989
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:57 pm
Reputation: 4232

Re: News/Current Events, discussion (Bullets, Ballots & Bomb

Postby rublev » Sun May 21, 2017 7:20 pm

Landslide Win for Iran’s Reformists Doesn’t Fit Trump’s Script, So He Ignores It

The hypocrisy of America’s support for unelected despots in the oil-rich Gulf states is not new, but Donald Trump’s lavish praise for them on Sunday, as allies against “Islamist extremism” and “the oppression of women,” was particularly striking, coming one day after Iranian voters danced in the streets to celebrate their reformist president’s landslide re-election.

As Iran’s moderates celebrated on Saturday night, Trump and members of his cabinet were dancing with swords in Saudi Arabia. Speaking in the Saudi capital of Riyadh on Sunday, Trump made no mention of the scenes in Iran or of President Hassan Rouhani, whose diplomatic engagement with the West over Iran’s nuclear program helped to avert the war American allies in the region, including the Gulf states and Israel, seemed to be still hoping for.

Instead, the American president promised the monarchs and autocrats in the room that he would work with them “to isolate Iran.” He also promised, bizarrely, “to help our Saudi friends to get a good deal” from American arms makers.

As Trita Parsi of the National Iranian American Council observed, Trump seemed to be in full agreement with his host, King Salman of Saudi Arabia, who called Iran’s government “the spearhead of global terrorism.” After the speech, Trump accompanied King Salman, President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi of Egypt and other leaders to open a new Global Center for Combating Extremist Ideology in Riyadh.

In meetings with other monarchs earlier on Sunday, Trump assured the King of Bahrain that relations between the two nations would no longer be strained by a brutal crackdown on pro-democracy protesters, and said his discussion with the Emir of Qatar would focus on “the purchase of lots of beautiful military equipment.”

As the vote-counting in local elections in Iran continued on Sunday, the contrast between Saudi Arabia’s absolute monarchy and the partial democracy there became even more stark with the news that moderates had also won sweeping victories in Tehran and other cities.

Iran’s foreign minister, Mohammad Javad Zarif, offered a Twitter rebuttal to Trump, suggesting that his support for the Saudi king was driven mainly by the opportunity to sell billions of dollars in American weapons to the kingdom. Even as Rouhani’s supporters celebrated, however, there were reminders of the limits on democracy in Iran — where the elected president serves under the country’s ruling cleric, Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.

In many places, cheers for Rouhani’s victory were accompanied by chants in support of Mir Hussein Mousavi and Mehdi Karroubi, reformist leaders who have been under house arrest since encouraging post-election protests in 2009.


Trump Turns Politically Correct in Saudi Arabia

Trump criticized terrorist groups like ISIS for their “persecution of Jews,” and he condemned Iran for pledging “the destruction of Israel.” But since ISIS and Iran are Riyadh’s most bitter foes, those condemnations won’t have bothered the Saudi monarchs at all. Unlike Obama, Trump avoided the broader problem of anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial in Islamic countries, a problem in which his Saudi hosts are deeply complicit. Nor did he even hint at the fact that Saudi Arabia still does not recognize Israel.

On the question of women’s rights, it was much the same. Trump attacked jihadist terrorists for “the oppression of women.” But he described King Salman’s government as a virtual beacon of women’s rights. “Saudi Arabia’s Vision for 2030 is an important and encouraging statement of tolerance, respect, empowering women, and economic development,” Trump declared. You would never have known that women in the Kingdom still can’t drive.

Trump didn’t even mention the words “democracy,” “liberty,” or “freedom.” To the contrary, in a sentence that will bring grins to autocrats across the region, he declared that, “We are not here to lecture—we are not here to tell other people how to live, what to do, who to be.”

Trump did condemn “extremism.” But speaking in the country he has accused of complicity in 9/11, he did not once pointedly suggest that any Middle East regime except Iran’s might bear any responsibility for that extremism. Rather than suggesting, as both Obama and George W. Bush did, that the authoritarianism and corruption of Arab governments might have helped spawn groups like al-Qaeda and ISIS, Trump reversed the causality. The Middle East’s “untapped potential” he declared, “is held at bay by bloodshed and terror.” And in so doing, he endorsed the agenda that Saudi Arabia and other Sunni Arab dictatorships have been urging for years: Help us confront Iran and kill “terrorists” (which includes anyone who opposes our hold on power) and all will be well.


this is depressing
  • 2

User avatar
rublev
Political Editor
 
Posts: 989
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:57 pm
Reputation: 4232

Re: News/Current Events, discussion (Bullets, Ballots & Bomb

Postby adiabatic » Mon May 22, 2017 2:19 am

rublev wrote:Image


Image

  • 5

“clothing for attractive rich people in their 20s to go to weddings in” — Zack Johnson on Vineyard Vines
User avatar
adiabatic
 
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:10 pm
Reputation: 372

Re: News/Current Events, discussion (Bullets, Ballots & Bomb

Postby rublev » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:29 pm

shoutout to @emmanuelmacron for showing real leadership in these dark times!
  • 3

User avatar
rublev
Political Editor
 
Posts: 989
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:57 pm
Reputation: 4232

Re: News/Current Events, discussion (Bullets, Ballots & Bomb

Postby maj » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:51 am

what an absolute boy :wink:
  • 4

Major General John "Hacks" Dunning (Viscount Windsor) aka peak angry nerd
User avatar
maj
 
Posts: 1398
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:44 pm
Location: the midlands (woo)
Reputation: 8668

Re: News/Current Events, discussion (Bullets, Ballots & Bomb

Postby nope » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:04 am

Yessssss Jezza!
  • 0

User avatar
nope
 
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:25 pm
Reputation: 637

Re: News/Current Events, discussion (Bullets, Ballots & Bomb

Postby rublev » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:38 am

i suppose someone should change my thing to ex-political editor now
  • 3

User avatar
rublev
Political Editor
 
Posts: 989
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:57 pm
Reputation: 4232

Re: News/Current Events, discussion (Bullets, Ballots & Bomb

Postby alby » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:05 pm

i am deeply concerned for john mccains health
  • 2

i'd walk a mile for a camel
User avatar
alby
 
Posts: 517
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:00 pm
Reputation: 2550

Re: News/Current Events, discussion (Bullets, Ballots & Bomb

Postby rublev » Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:16 pm

@oucho happy to be wrong on the corybn surge but you'll forgive me if i don't feel 'humiliated'
  • 4

User avatar
rublev
Political Editor
 
Posts: 989
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:57 pm
Reputation: 4232

Re: News/Current Events, discussion (Bullets, Ballots & Bomb

Postby vgtbls » Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:24 pm

alby wrote:i am deeply concerned for john mccains health

I hope they let him nuke Iran before he dies. It's all he's ever wanted
  • 8

User avatar
vgtbls
 
Posts: 673
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:10 pm
Reputation: 4896

Re: News/Current Events, discussion (Bullets, Ballots & Bomb

Postby bels » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:39 am

Image
  • 3

Image
User avatar
bels
Yung Winona
 
Posts: 4967
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:43 pm
Reputation: 18251

Re: News/Current Events, discussion (Bullets, Ballots & Bomb

Postby radicalbusiness » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:01 pm

Happy Indigenous People's Day!
  • 3

User avatar
radicalbusiness
 
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:02 am
Location: Seattle
Reputation: 607

Re: News/Current Events, discussion (Bullets, Ballots & Bomb

Postby CheerUpBrokeBoy » Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:00 pm

should we make a socialism thread or is this the best place to discuss that kind of thing

what's care-tags' power level
  • 2

Image
User avatar
CheerUpBrokeBoy
 
Posts: 511
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:29 pm
Location: online
Reputation: 2084

Re: News/Current Events, discussion (Bullets, Ballots & Bomb

Postby Ques » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:10 am

Image

edit: photo links to a NYT article
  • 1

User avatar
Ques
 
Posts: 676
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:45 pm
Location: china
Reputation: 3629

AMERICANS GO VOTE

Postby rjbman » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:14 am

hi just a friendly reminder that today is election day in the US of A

please please please go vote today, us young people vote way too low a percent. do you really want great grandpa jack deciding what happens in this country?

feel free to ping me if you need help figuring out voting location or anything, and I would suggest figuring out who you are going to vote for ahead of time so you can make an educated decision
  • 3

"Let's be vagabonds." - Yohji Yamamoto
User avatar
rjbman
 
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:34 pm
Location: IL
Reputation: 6518

Previous

Return to Care

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests