Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

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Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby rjbman » Sun Nov 29, 2015 11:13 am

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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby rjbman » Sun Nov 29, 2015 11:16 am

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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby sknss » Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:52 pm

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http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... main-video

Over 10,000 pairs of shoes on the Place de la Republique replace marchers who were set to take part in a climate cancelled protest as activists take to the streets around the globe. The Paris march was expected to bring 200,000 people onto the city’s streets but was forbidden by French authorities in light of security concerns. Elsewhere, thousands marched in Hong Kong, Seoul and Sydney ahead of the Paris climate summit on Monday
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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby vgtbls » Sun Nov 29, 2015 2:04 pm

One of my favorite ways to keep up with some of the news is PRI's "Living On Earth" podcast.

http://loe.org/

They have a lot of knowledgable and high-profile guests, and really put out a great program every week.

BBC's "Costing The Earth" podcast is also very good, and often UK-specific.
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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby LelandJ » Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:32 pm

sknss wrote:we probably need a thread for environmental activism

paris talks are opening tomorrow and there are marches organised everywhere in the world today :woop:
http://350.org/global-climate-march/


Paris talks are dog and pony show as usual.

Planet's already in triage/hospice stage.
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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby sknss » Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:01 pm

Sure. What's the point of saying that though? I don't think we need any more depressing talk. We need to join forces to try to come up with solutions so that the future looks a little bit less bleak
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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby Bobbin.Threadbare » Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:22 pm

LelandJ wrote:
sknss wrote:we probably need a thread for environmental activism

paris talks are opening tomorrow and there are marches organised everywhere in the world today :woop:
http://350.org/global-climate-march/


Paris talks are dog and pony show as usual.

Planet's already in triage/hospice stage.


How do we get through to you? You are half of the problem - what exactly do we have to do to get you to say "you know what, this is bullshit - I'm going to do something positive" and then act accordingly?

I don't want to be confrontational, especially on a forum - but what kind of response did you think your post would illicit? Your attitude is worse than climate change deniers - you agree theres a problem but decide that its too hard for you to do anything about.
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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby LelandJ » Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:08 pm

Bobbin.Threadbare wrote:
LelandJ wrote:
sknss wrote:we probably need a thread for environmental activism

paris talks are opening tomorrow and there are marches organised everywhere in the world today :woop:
http://350.org/global-climate-march/


Paris talks are dog and pony show as usual.

Planet's already in triage/hospice stage.


How do we get through to you? You are half of the problem - what exactly do we have to do to get you to say "you know what, this is bullshit - I'm going to do something positive" and then act accordingly?

I don't want to be confrontational, especially on a forum - but what kind of response did you think your post would illicit? Your attitude is worse than climate change deniers - you agree theres a problem but decide that its too hard for you to do anything about.


Totally disagree. A "problem" assumes a solution exists to prevent our current 6th great extinction which will include humans, sooner than most want to learn. Understanding our "predicament" (no solution) is a first step most haven't taken yet. For direct analogy I believe there's no greater motivator for excellence and action (mitigation of suffering and focus on real beauty) than when someone's diagnosed with a terminal illness. The process of human extinction obviously isn't immediately tangible in the same way, but the psychological impact when understood isn't unique. Hospice should be about compassion, which we're deprived of in society.
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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby Bobbin.Threadbare » Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:31 pm

I see, so you're saying you're just more enlightened.

There is a solution, there are many solutions, there are solutions we haven't even discovered and your attitude on a wider scale only retards that. Keeping within your analogy (even though I think it's a poor one because the situation is far more complex), the state of 'terminal illness' has changed over time owing to hard work and a refusal of doom. Illnesses that used to be terminal are now treated, most recently HIV used to be a death sentence - but its now a life-long condition and I'm certain it'll end up being just another curable disease. My mum has had two maladies that would have been terminal just a few decades ago, and I'm happy to report that she's very much alive and kicking because no one researching and developing solutions for the impossible, terminal illness decided it would probably just be better to focus on making her 'comfortable'.

I know you're a leading scientist in this field and also a time traveller with insider knowledge about the great extinction of man but I happen to think you might be wrong about it all being doom and gloom - because we are clearly very interested in self preservation as a species.

I think spinning this off into "I'm saying we should be more compassionate" is a nice touch though.
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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby LelandJ » Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:56 pm

I see you're wavering btwn anger, denial (ignorance), and bargaining (with logic fallacies) phases! :razz:

And hubris of modern man's desire to be master (controller) of an environment it's already destroyed beyond repair (other than extinction of most species).
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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby Bobbin.Threadbare » Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:10 pm

Super great response there but I think, in this case, you might just be a little too liberal with your use of amateur psychology.

I'm hopeful for an edit that will turn that second bit into a sentence but I think you're saying I am in three phases of loss at the same time (not in order) and an additional phase that you have introduced called 'huberis' (which I would have actually put under denial, but okay).

Okay, let's both agree that you have gone straight to acceptance (in another framework I don't think fits) but I think that must be very sad for you and I hope that at least your idea of compassion positively effects the situation.
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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby vgtbls » Sun Nov 29, 2015 11:32 pm

I think it's pretty obvious that we'll never get back to the Pristine Environment (tm) that Sierra Club pamphlets like to harp about. That doesn't mean all is doomed. The earth, its cycles, and its inhabitants are in intensely complex system. We don't have the capability of modeling it. A system with so many moving parts has a large number of stability points.

Our responsibility is to ensure that the transition between stability points is the least catastrophic shift possible. I read a great phrase in a book: "Manage the unavoidable, avoid the unmanageable." Seeing as we can essentially treat CO2 emissions as a function of time, the "unmanageable" gets more potent every day. Excited for this summit. The challenge ahead can be the greatest victory in the history of humankind.
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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby LelandJ » Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:02 am

Bobbin.Threadbare wrote:Okay, let's both agree that you have gone straight to acceptance (in another framework I don't think fits) but I think that must be very sad for you and I hope that at least your idea of compassion positively effects the situation.


The proper term is pre-traumatic stress disorder. I'm a leading historical musicologist and archivist so preserving and reproducing rich cultures keeps me from total despair. :sweg:
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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby YoungCanoeist » Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:08 am

In terms of solutions to climate change, check out Carbon Fee and Dividend, http://citizensclimatelobby.org/carbon-fee-and-dividend/, through Citizens' Climate Lobby, an organization I volunteer for. It's a remarkable solution in that it was (1) created by George Shultz, a widely respected Republican and former Secretary of State, (2) is projected to grow the U.S. economy and any economy in which a similar price-dividend program is implemented, (3) requires very little increase in government regulations, so Republicans, conservatives, Libertarians can all get behind it and many have already, and (4) works well within the UNFCCC programs already established as well as cap and trade systems, and is implementable in any country. B.C. Canada already has something like this in place. I have reservations about the policy's encouragement of economic growth, but it's a realistic policy that works well in the world we have today.

Similar policies are increasingly being discussed in the UNFCCC and avenues for direct citizen participation are as well. One arm of Citizens' Climate Lobby works there http://www.pathwaytoparis.org/ and with World We Want https://www.worldwewant2015.org/. Each evening, a consensus agreement is made in the climate talks, and a draft document is completed and is now going to be published on this platform, each night, for annotation. Anyone in the world with a computer can get online and comment on the document, voicing their concerns, desires, feelings, etc. No UN delegate is going to want to be the only one in the morning that hasn't read what the citizens of the world have said, so this is essentially a way to directly input citizen voices without even asking for it. It's been a few months since I've been around this, but I think World We Want is the correct platform. I've personally spoken with the guy that leads this arm of CCL. Very, very good things are happening here. Check him out on instagram @poeteconomist.

Overall, Citizens' Climate Lobby is an incredible organization. Everything that we do is based on respect, appreciation, and connecting over common values. In this way, we're connecting with people across boundaries on the issue of climate change. We're alleviating some of the intense partisanship going on right now in the U.S. We've made significant inroads with Republican members of congress and conservative voices. In October, 12 House Republicans wrote a resolution (House Res. 424) that stated that human-induced climate change is real and the federal government has a responsibility to find and implement solutions to it, and CCL worked very closely with those MoCs in the drafting of the resolution. We were only founded in 2007, and now we have members in every congressional district in the U.S. and in the last one year we've more than quadrupled our membership (4,000 to 18,000).

This summer, 900 of us went to D.C. and met with almost every single congressional office to speak about Carbon Fee and Dividend. I met with three there, and in August I met my own representative in person. Citizens' Climate Lobby has shown me that there are still bits and pieces of our democracy that are still intact, and it's shown me that I can be an engaged and effective citizen for a cause that I care about. And the people in the organization have shown me what can be accomplished when a group of determined, passionate people support each other and work together toward something good.

I sometimes feel hopeless about the whole damn thing too. Hopeless and pissed off. But I feel that way less often now than I did before, because there are real solutions out there, and there are people that are working tirelessly to make sure that they become a reality. Join us.

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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby Cowboy » Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:23 pm

Bela Lelands position is quite nihilist what are your thoughts on the matter please
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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby LelandJ » Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:12 pm

Cowboy wrote:Bela Lelands position is quite nihilist what are your thoughts on the matter please


I witness society's nihilism therefore I'm a nihilist?

Well there is no one or thing in itself, cartesian illusion of pre-20th century science however much most still believe it. No one is apart from nihilism.
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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby vgtbls » Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:45 pm

I don't know anything about philosophy but I do believe there's a specific thread for that. Even if "true" knowledge and understanding is futile/a projection/shadow in a cave(?) I'd rather not let that get in the way of at least an attempt to right the world.

Jonrisk sent me a cool snippet from NPR's Planet Money about Carbon Offsets. The takeaway is that they help some, but they only excuse bad behaviour. It's a short listen, and the economics of climate change is something I'd love to hear more about. http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/ ... oney-trees
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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby rublev » Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:38 pm

the best way to alleviate risks from climate change is to lift people out of poverty through economic development / growth (if someone disagrees please let me know). the question is whether developing countries can grow in a way that doesn't make climate change worse?? should we allow these countries to pollute more in the short term? how do we manage our resources when emerging economies like india, china, bangladesh, parts of africa etc, want to grow, and that growth involves industry that will pollute. the west got away with it. but what do we do now?

interesting economist article which discusses whether, for india, chinese levels of growth demands chinese levels of pollution.
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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby rjbman » Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:54 pm

I believe that India is on-board with clean initiatives, but are asking for either money / cheaper access to patented technology in order to aid it.

Quick search reveals this link, but that's not where I read it from.
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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby LelandJ » Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:27 pm

cowboy wrote:I don't remember calling u a nihilist I called ur position nihilistic


Metaphysical distinctions are more illusions not far from nihilism either!

Thou art that.
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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby LelandJ » Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:37 pm

2.7 C the new "target" LMAO:

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/un-cl ... kmuw5.html

We already have 6 C locked in btw for all you gen Y, Z or iphoners.

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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby Bobbin.Threadbare » Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:52 pm

Leland you started off entertaining but its getting quite boring now. You're fast becoming the Donald Trump of this thread.
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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby INNIT » Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:26 pm

Alberta (Canada's conservative hub and home of the infamous oilsands) to implement progressive environmental policy

some specifics:

— Alberta will phase out all pollution created by burning coal by 2030, and transition to more renewable energy and natural-gas generation. The province promises the plan will provide reasonable electricity prices for consumers and businesses.

— Within the next months, the government will set up a facilitator and negotiator to work with coal-plant operators to figure out how best to move forward, since the province’s 18 coal-fired electricity plants currently create 55 per cent of the province’s electricity.

— Two-thirds of coal-generated electricity will be replaced by renewables, mostly wind power.

— Renewable-energy sources will comprise up to 30 per cent of Alberta’s electricity production by 2030.

— A carbon tax will be introduced on all emitters, including regular citizens driving cars and heating their homes. A $20-per-tonne, economy-wide levy will start in January 2017, then increase to $30-per-tonne in January 2018, growing over time based on inflation and based on competitive jurisdictions. For the average household, that means about $320 extra in 2017 for gas, natural gas and electricity, and $470 in 2018.

— But the carbon plan, which will bring in an estimated $3 billion, aims to be revenue neutral, with the government offering rebates through various programs to approximately 60 per cent of people with Alberta’s lowest income. For those not afforded the rebates, the government will create efficiency programs to help people reduce their energy use.




this is a big deal in a province where many people do not give a single shit about what happens to the environment so long as the oilsands remain profitable. a lot of people I know are viewing this as a negative thing (privileged "socialists" making decisions based on "ideology" rather than on the needs of "real Albertans"), but i love it.

phasing out coal and switching to roughy 1/3 renewable (30% by 2030) is a huge step in the right direction. not sure how effective carbon tax is but I like the idea of money from the levy being reinvested into clean-energy solutions.

but what I like MOST about this policy is the message it sends. i don't know how effective it will end up being but i like that at least something is being done. if fucking alberta can get its shit together then so can everyone
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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby rjbman » Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:07 pm

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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby Ques » Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:32 am

I thought this was an interesting read about the possibility of limiting future world growth in order to prevent climate change: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/02/busin ... rowth.html

Additionally, I've read a bit lately about how investing in nuclear power, in the US at least, is one major untapped solution that would nix most of our carbon-related issues. Why do people think that it isn't really being considered an option, at least by the mainstream? Does anyone here have some incredibly moving reason not to use nuclear power that I hadn't fully considered?
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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby YoungCanoeist » Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:41 am

Jesus, I had typed out a thorough response to that article @Ques, but I lost my connection when I went to submit it and I lost everything. This is relevant to your question too, @rublev.

But basically I read that article today too and thought it was very interesting. What I was said in my post is that Porter is getting at something true here with his claim that economic growth created the conditions for democracy, reduced conflict, and increased social equality. I have not yet accepted his claim that growth is solely responsible because the social changes that he describes have taken place across centuries and continents and are likely to have other interacting causes. However, the key point, as noted in his paraphrase of Martin Wolf, is that this growth has to be received equitably by everyone in the society for it to create these valued social changes. It is true that more equal societies are more sustainable -- in terms of the social order, economics, and ecology. Most growth that is promoted by politicians, businesspeople, and so on, is not this kind of growth. The kind of growth that they promote is not equitably distributed. Thus those valued and desired social changes and the sustainability of societies and the planetary ecosystem will not occur within this current paradigm of liberal capitalism and rapacious pursuit of growth. It would also be helpful if growth were slowed. And maintaining an equal and well-off society in terms of racial and gender equality, lack of class conflict, quality healthcare and education for all, intensive public participation in government, ecological agriculture, social cohesion, service to community as opposed to individualistic motives, and community strength and resilience, in the face of slow, slow economic growth (GDP) is possible, and revolutionary Cuba is a fantastic example of that.

In conclusion, growth will achieve those social benefits that Porter lists if the fruits of growth are distributed equitably across the population of a society. This is not the case in the current paradigm of growth, and is thus unsustainable. Growth as is conventionally thought of cannot be a solution to climate change. It should be more dispersed and slowed.
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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby YoungCanoeist » Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:44 pm

I'd actually like to amend my statement because I haven't yet read enough about the idea of de-growth to discount it. So I am not convinced that growth is necessary.
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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby dakaf_fal » Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:49 pm

@Ques

Nothing too surprising about why the US is reluctant to utilize more nuclear energy. No new nuclear plants have been built in years, and there's a lot of red tape. Even if the US aggressively pursued a nuclear energy program it would be years before they could reap any of the benefits, and most people aren't concerned with long term solutions. However small a possibility, nuclear meltdown is always a concern. Since all plans for new nuclear facilities more or less stopped after the Three Mile Island incident, I think that the potential consequences of such a disaster are seen as too severe to risk.

Assuming a nuclear program was developed, there's no place to storage spent nuclear material. Yucca Mountain has been discussed for years, but it's not really a viable solution. If I recall correctly, it's close enough to underground aquifers to contaminate the local groundwater and no other storage facilities have been seriously discussed. On top of that, nuclear isn't a sustainable source of energy. Sure, it's got a much longer horizon than fossil fuels, but nuclear energy will eventually run out too. So the people that aren't concerned about climate change favor sticking with fossil fuels because it's the least expensive option and already has the infrastructure in place, while the people most concerned about climate change would prefer a more sustainable energy source.
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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby odradek » Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:33 pm

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Re: Captain Planet and the Planeteers [ecology]

Postby sknss » Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:55 pm

cop21 deal has been signed! let's celebrate with some vintage tshirts!

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coke tshirt made from recycled bottles

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